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Unfortunately they are not misinformed. We have a couple of people in this forum (naming no names) who regularly recommend Slackware to newbies as a first Linux system. The only people who might benefit from that are old farts like me who worked in offices and libraries in the 1980s and find the command line blessedly familiar after all that complex and confusing graphical stuff. Certainly not young people who were weaned on iPhones.
Young people do not appreciate KISS. They want systems that are simple-as-in-easy, not simple-as-in-simplicity. When they are more accustomed to Linux, they may find their way to Slackware and love it, but starting too early is simply going to put them off.
The emphasis is not on whether Slackware is suitable as one's first adventure into Linux, because that's subject to too many variables. But rather that the premise that it shouldn't be, and being labelled a 'clown' for suggesting it, and the reason(s) for relaying one's opinion in those terms, is poignant.
With Slackware, or anything else, you cannot tell people what they want or need and expect to be right all of the time. Old people raised on PDPs, young people raised on 'iWhatever', they all have different requirements. If they share their requirements with you - and Slackware fits the bill - then why not suggest for them to try it? I always advise brand-new Linux users to try Ubuntu first, especially if they are from a Windows background. Those who don't want to know/learn much more might be happy with just that, or similar, but those who do might be interested in Slackware. I never force the issue but if people ask then I will be a messenger.
[EDIT] I designed the Slackware ARM on a Raspberry Pi installer guide specifically for this purpose. So that brand-new users with no previous knowledge or experience of any OS are able to install and run Slackware ARM, by walking them through it with 'pretty pictures' and holding their hands whilst giving them a nice BIG warm hug. [NB: Jaffa cakes NOT included in that!] I like to believe this is achieved by addressing users as if they know little, or nothing, but certainly not treating them like idiots because they know little or nothing. That way users can choose to ignore what is irrelevant and acknowledge that which is useful. If anything.
IMHO new Slackware users just need the right information for the right reason(s). They will decide by themselves what to do with it after that.
Last edited by Exaga; 02-11-2020 at 07:02 AM.
Reason: edit - rewording
Surely the real difference between the Slackware system of package management and something like apt is that Slackware does not handle dependencies and therefore does not need to maintain a complex and delicate dependency database. Whether the process of downloading packages is automated or not hardly matters. Slackpkg is just a skin over pkgtools in the same way as apt is a skin over dpkg. And pkgtools, unlike the dpkg system, is just a bundle of shell scripts that works with a directory of text-based package description files, so it's easy to debug.
Again, the reason why people sometimes have to spend time fixing multiple breaks in the automated packaging systems of other distros is not that they are automated but rather that they are based on an intrinsically complicated database system. In Debian, you could download packages by hand from the repos and install them with dpkg but it would still be complicated and potentially fragile because of the underlying complexity of the system. Conversely, using slackpkg doesn't really add any complications at all; you're just speeding up the manual process.
Thanks, hazel, for a thoughtful and accurate assessment. I was aware of much of this but not having used slackpkg I do lack a full understanding of it's self-imposed and wise limitations. However while it isn't a leap toward "me too, also ran" automated package management it does seem a step in that direction to me and while it is apparently a very careful step, I still see value in new people learning bare pkgtool first. The firmer the foundation, the more solid the house. So on the subject of slackpkg we only differ slightly.
However, here....
Quote:
Originally Posted by hazel
Unfortunately they are not misinformed. We have a couple of people in this forum (naming no names) who regularly recommend Slackware to newbies as a first Linux system. The only people who might benefit from that are old farts like me who worked in offices and libraries in the 1980s and find the command line blessedly familiar after all that complex and confusing graphical stuff. Certainly not young people who were weaned on iPhones.
Young people do not appreciate KISS. They want systems that are simple-as-in-easy, not simple-as-in-simplicity. When they are more accustomed to Linux, they may find their way to Slackware and love it, but starting too early is simply going to put them off.
I've had to think long and hard about this, and I've concluded it may be a bit over-generalized and may need some qualification. Yes, I think it is probably true that the General Public Young People are rather TLDR, I don't see Slackware as appealing to TLDR people of ANY age and there are young folks who rebel that whole distanced and weak mindset. Some people in any generation don't want to "paint by numbers" (is that still a thing?) and actually learn fundamentals, understanding that's where power and creativity lie. I don't regularly recommend Slackware to anyone without an explanation much like Lysander's tag - (paraphrased) "The focus of Slackware isn't on ease and convenience" It's all about function.
This is going to be a post that is even more off-topic from the previous off-topic posts here in this thread. That being said, I'd like to comment about something I've always noticed about LQ.org since my first days here 14 or so years ago. Personalities, opinions, and quirky behavior aside; there are some impressively intelligent master communicators with the written (or typed) word here at this place.
If people look at the Slackware website and decide that since the latest news was from 2016-07-01 (since that's what shows up when you go there), then maybe changing the website to show the -current changelog by default would show that it isn't dead.
It isn't just that. What about a link to a -current ISO as well? People care about packages, so how about a feed from https://github.com/Ponce/slackbuilds commits? How about a ticker with the slack-builds submission queue latest at the bottom?
I'm sure I'll pick up some flames for this but everything about Slackware.com just shouts out 'lame' to the casual visitor. The tragedy is, it's easily fixed for someone who knows anything about web design. I'm guessing that's not Pat's speciality hence it's not been done. I hope he opens it up to someone else though.
I don't regularly recommend Slackware to anyone without an explanation much like Lysander's tag - (paraphrased) "The focus of Slackware isn't on ease and convenience" It's all about function.
When I first used Linux I would let people know about it. I never promote Linux these days. I respect their right to suffer with other operating systems.
there are some impressively intelligent master communicators with the written (or typed) word here at this place.
My own well of irony just dried out. So I should be more serious. This thread soon will be over. When I am serious people usually stop to listen. And go in some other place.
I first installed Slackware around v9. Hasard of life made me leave it and then come back. At this moment, seeing the website, I thought it was dead and tried Debian (sid, due to new hardware). After a month, cursing at this awful apt-thing, I wondered if I could find some successor to Slackware... And recall current! I was saved!!
Just to say : even knowing and loving Slackware, you could think it's dead. This website has to be updated.
The real problem is : what news could be written on the front page?
I think the different official flavors could be mentioned, as could be the ecosystem :
Slackware 32 and 64 bits, Slackware arm, Slackware live
Official forum, official donation opportunities
slackbuilds.org and core team sites
Some of these are newer than 14.2 release (easy) and official enough (not all, I know).
Shall we submit a "news" post? I bet we could if it has a chance to be considered.
I don't think Pat wants to spend his time keeping the home page current with new however proforma news items. Personally at this point I would just replace whatever the index.php file is on the root with a mostly empty document that has a meta refresh over to "http://www.slackware.com/changelog/" which at least puts the change logs front and center where hopefully a passerby would click one and see that things are happening. Obviously that index file will need to be renamed home or something and link on the side of the page fixed so you can hit the homepage.
This would take 10min probably, and you just change the meta refresh to go to /home once there finally is a release with a real news item.
I'll submit this fleeting thought, and then go into hiding because I'll probably be painting a big red bullseye on my forehead...
Nice. So it seems you copied the general style, without using any of the same generation code? There was a post somewhere to the effect that code generating the Slackware.com site was difficult to manage possibly why it's not been updated.
But if you drag the lower right browser window corner towards the top left, watch your layout go. Slackware.com does better, not that it's perfect.
Distribution: Slackware/Salix while testing others
Posts: 1,718
Rep:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pithium
Setting aside the obvious problems with internet trolling... I have to share some real life experience.
Whenever I bring up slackware in the *real world*, the first thing people do is pull up their web browser and go to the website. First impressions matter to people and the first impression any normal person is going to have is that slackware is dead. This isn't a matter of being a guru, or experienced linux user. Unless an experienced user tells you that Slackware is alive and well, all signs point to dead. And bear in mind that I work in the tech field. The people I interact with on a daily basis are far beyond the average user in terms of computer knowledge. And even THEY look at me like some sort of wierdo because I'm getting all excited over a dead operating system.
I can't tell you how many times I've run into this. Just my experience from outside the scope of cyberspace..
First impression any normal person? Interesting choice of words. I think sometimes we forget that PV has kept Slackware true to its origins and in many ways true to *nix origins. It is his project that is kept close to his heart and a few other team members and he shares his project with the world, free of charge. While some nitpick the website, nitpick what should be included in the next Slackware etc... we should not forget what was just stated. *nix has always been a hackers domain, so what if some companies decided they can profit off of it, at the end of the day the heart and the integrity is still a hackers domain. I like the simplicity of the site, also notice and ponder this:
Quote:
After a long development cycle (including many betas and release candidates to get everything just exactly perfect) we're pleased to announce the availability of the new stable release. You'll find updates throughout the system, with the latest development tools and recent versions of applications, window managers, desktop environments, and utilities. The Linux kernel is updated to version 4.4.14 (part of the 4.4.x kernel series that will be getting long-term support from the kernel developers). We've brought together the best of these and other modern components and worked our magic on them. If you've used Slackware before, you'll find the system feels like home.
It further goes on to show where the interested person can find more information, including this site/forum.
Meh, I actually think that our, at times, petty discussions just proves how stable/perfect Slackware is. Our systems are so stable we can ̶b̶i̶t̶c̶h̶/complain about other things. Auto updates frigged your system, nope, systemd problems, nope, package manager thinks its smarter then you, nope, package maintainers decide one program should depend on 80 others, nope.....
Nice. So it seems you copied the general style, without using any of the same generation code? There was a post somewhere to the effect that code generating the Slackware.com site was difficult to manage possibly why it's not been updated.
I have nothing to do with the development, design, or style of arm.slackware.com, or that of Slackware ARM, in any way, if that's what you mean. That's all managed by Stuart Winter [MoZes] the Slackware Team's ARM developer. The results of his ingenuity and creativeness are what you see there, not mine. Yes, of course I'm jealous! The beehive glimpse is inspired... and so sexy.
I'm only involved with the SARPi Project and our website was designed by an aspiring ~3 yr old "architect" with a box of crayons. Very colourful though. Right?
I'm only involved with the SARPi Project and our website was designed by an aspiring ~3 yr old "architect" with a box of crayons. Very colourful though. Right?
It certainly beats the crap out of mine. Have no time for all this html stuff, it's just a google site http://www.bifferos.com/
Unfortunately they are not misinformed. We have a couple of people in this forum (naming no names) who regularly recommend Slackware to newbies as a first Linux system. The only people who might benefit from that are old farts like me who worked in offices and libraries in the 1980s and find the command line blessedly familiar after all that complex and confusing graphical stuff. Certainly not young people who were weaned on iPhones.
Slackware is great for newbies, and it's a great learning tool for those who want to learn more about the innards of Linux. Up until 2017, I've used Slackware for my Linux classes. In the same year, I published a book called Débuter avec Linux (Getting Started with Linux), which is entirely based on Slackware 14.2.
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