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Old 09-03-2017, 03:22 AM   #46
pan64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
If I read correctly no one has named the problem explicitly, but as a Devuan user I'd say a very big problem facing the distros in 2017 is that systemd dependencies have become a quite a hydra.
No, I do not actually care about that: systemd or something else old or new is irrelevant - if works.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
Yes, systemd itself is a political problem, however in this context I'm talking purely of the technical aspects. First, there is the increasing difficulty it takes to roll back a new systemd dependency from a package. Second, there is the increasing frequency with which these dependencies are encountered.
No again, it is not just systemd, but everything grows over its own manageability/usability by increased complexity and difficulty. This implies more dependencies too.
 
Old 09-03-2017, 07:22 AM   #47
Orthoducks
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Amen to lack of documentation. I'd say lack of effective documentation. I'd hazard a guess that most open source developers write their own documentation and don't have any ability to do so. Most frustrating is documentation, sometimes quite substantial, that mostly says things like "The Frammistan Bloviation dialog bloviates the frammistan." What's a frammistan, where is it in the UI, and what does bloviation involve? No clue.

Apart from that, the two biggest issues for me are speech recognition and backup. There just isn't any speech recognition capability worth using, and I've never found a backup application that wasn't too simple-minded to be useful or too complex (and poorly documented) to figure out.
 
Old 09-03-2017, 08:06 AM   #48
MadeInGermany
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Head lines are

Feature creep (Wikipedia)
Open source and ego driven destruction (softpanorama.org, this includes lack of documentation)
Dependency hell (Wikipedia)
 
Old 09-03-2017, 09:04 AM   #49
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Too bad we couldn't get something like "adopt an app." One person or team, one app and they help write the documentation. To make it easier for the average person there could be a general written guideline for all to go by and that person could contact the dev of that app with questions from that guideline.

In other words the way we have devs, and teams of devs, taking care of coding and such we could get a separate group that takes care of the documentation. We could even have documentation teams that compete, in a friendly way.

Last edited by Zyblin; 09-03-2017 at 09:13 AM.
 
Old 09-03-2017, 09:25 AM   #50
Turbocapitalist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyblin View Post
Too bad we couldn't get something like "adopt an app." One person or team, one app and they help write the documentation.
A fair level of programming proficiency is needed to work through the code to know what it does in order to document it. Also to do it right a lot more time is needed to follow the right lists and know the intentions of the developers. So in reality those that write the applications are in the best position to make at least a first draft of the corresponding man pages.

Of course it can be taken a step further like how the OpenBSD operating system's developers won't accept patches for code unless they are accompanied by documentation patches of the same high quality. That's something that would be doable but would require a major change in ways of thinking. I'd really like to see the Info pages just go away and the two or three filled out Info pages merged into the appropriate man pages. I guess I've gotten too used to the low average quality of the new man pages in GNU/Linux.

tldr; manual pages really need work, I see that as a technical problem
 
Old 09-03-2017, 10:00 AM   #51
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for me it is libs and lib-devels incompatible to some programs, and sometimes it is GUI's being non responsive or failing totally.

for example: fedora 26 shipped out with conky but with no nvidia support, i had to compile it myself and had to edit by hand make files and add support for libs that were "wrong" version.
 
Old 09-03-2017, 10:16 AM   #52
Zyblin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
A fair level of programming proficiency is needed to work through the code to know what it does in order to document it. Also to do it right a lot more time is needed to follow the right lists and know the intentions of the developers. So in reality those that write the applications are in the best position to make at least a first draft of the corresponding man pages.

Of course it can be taken a step further like how the OpenBSD operating system's developers won't accept patches for code unless they are accompanied by documentation patches of the same high quality. That's something that would be doable but would require a major change in ways of thinking. I'd really like to see the Info pages just go away and the two or three filled out Info pages merged into the appropriate man pages. I guess I've gotten too used to the low average quality of the new man pages in GNU/Linux.

tldr; manual pages really need work, I see that as a technical problem
True but maybe they could do as you said. Just a rough draft, an outline and then the guidelines can fill in the rest. Just ideas. Documentation seems to have always been an issue for the most part.

I also agree. The man pages need work as well.
 
Old 09-03-2017, 10:30 AM   #53
John VV
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Quote:
for example: fedora 26 shipped out with conky but with no nvidia support,
that's odd the "Nouveau" driver has been the default for many years

now switching from nouveau to the nvidia.run !! that can be "fun"

Quote:
Dependency hell (Wikipedia)
mostly not a issue for the majority of mainstream software

now some odd and very specialized software YES this can be an issue
but it is a small minority of the software i build
 
Old 09-03-2017, 12:33 PM   #54
dabeegmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Turbocapitalist View Post
A fair level of programming proficiency is needed to work through the code to know what it does in order to document it. Also to do it right a lot more time is needed to follow the right lists and know the intentions of the developers. So in reality those that write the applications are in the best position to make at least a first draft of the corresponding man pages.

Of course it can be taken a step further like how the OpenBSD operating system's developers won't accept patches for code unless they are accompanied by documentation patches of the same high quality. That's something that would be doable but would require a major change in ways of thinking. I'd really like to see the Info pages just go away and the two or three filled out Info pages merged into the appropriate man pages. I guess I've gotten too used to the low average quality of the new man pages in GNU/Linux.

tldr; manual pages really need work, I see that as a technical problem
Man pages - - - - well - - -
1. I've only seen a very very few that have examples of how to use the bleepin' command (and its 400 odd permuations!).
2. I have yet to see a man page that has an example of when something's gone wrong, what the result means and (gosh and golly) some suggestions on how to fix it.

IMO man pages are written for those that already know what they're doing to remind them of some nuances.
For those that don't really know what they're doing - - - well insert your favorite expletive here, and that's what you're supposed to do. Linux is for experts only GOT IT!!!!!

(rant off - - - sorry this one I wasn't going to raise but as someone else did I can then comment - - - yes?)
 
Old 09-03-2017, 12:36 PM   #55
dabeegmon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zyblin View Post
True but maybe they could do as you said. Just a rough draft, an outline and then the guidelines can fill in the rest. Just ideas. Documentation seems to have always been an issue for the most part.

I also agree. The man pages need work as well.
At this point 10% of the comments are about documentation - - - is anyone else seeing this trend.

Are there any of the programmer types willing to consider this challenge (work with a non-programmer to develop excellent documentation)?
 
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Old 09-03-2017, 12:55 PM   #56
dugan
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For those who said "library dependencies": the fact that there are so many technologies intended to deal with it (Flatpack, Snap, AppImage, MojoSetup, Docker...) supports your point pretty nicely.
 
Old 09-03-2017, 01:03 PM   #57
lax luthier
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Ubuntu 16.04 file manager not staying where I have selected (disk, directory,or file) when I minimize its window or go to another window. It reverts back to the home directory, which is inconvenient when actually trying to manage files.
Could this be remedied? Other than that I like it a lot. Thanks.
 
Old 09-03-2017, 02:02 PM   #58
stevethefiddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fkiss View Post
I find that most of the programs are great but lack the documentation on how to use the programs. If the developers would just give us screen shots of examples, it would be a big help. I think we are all smart enough to take it from there.
KISS - Keep It Simple S...
I agree that documentation (or lack of) is a big issue, not only for Linux but for FOSS generally, but this is something where YOU CAN HELP. There are thousands of free open source projects that are crying out for people to help with documentation. Pick your favorite project that you use regularly, and offer to help their documentation team (Translators are also in great demand, so for any readers that are fluent in two or more languages, this could be for you).
 
Old 09-04-2017, 11:25 AM   #59
Simon T
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I have read several posting about VM support, yet I cannot help but feel this is not a "Linux issue" and should be directed at Oracle and WINE HQ. Linux issues about running another OS under Linux is not exactly a Linux question. With that out of the way, I do use VM to some extent and I ask those questions directly to their developers and experts.

The best way to answer Jeremy about the current issues would be, reflecting back through my experience of being a Linux user these past 7 years. I started dual booting Windows XP (the last Windows OS I ever used) and Linux Kubuntu 10.10. After 18 months I started out fresh, booting straight into Kubuntu 12.04. My issues back then were more about my GPU and audio drivers. I have/had issues with PulseAudio as it caused popping and cracking. I had to learn to remove it from my system. I don't know how other distros deal or cope with PA but it annoys the Hell out of me. I only use ALSA now.

At this point, I have no experience setting up a Windows 10 machine to dual boot. When I recently purchased a Windows 10 machine, I reformatted the drive to EXT4 and put 2 copies of my Kubuntu on as dual boot. The main is my current version and the other is an emergency "recovery" copy should something fail I can still access the PC without a Live CD.

For people who are done with Windows, moving forward and not looking back, such as myself;
  • Questions will be more about 32 vs 64 bit architectures
  • memory management
  • swap file size and swappiness
  • file systems (btfs or EXT4)
  • what distro will get the better performance for the machine hardware

For people making the choice between Windows 10 and Linux you need to add;
  • Dual booting vs VM (pros and cons)
  • Grub lots of Grub
  • driver compatibility
  • features: mandatory vs toys and eye-candy
  • alternative open source programs (e.g. Libre Office vs MS Office)

In the end, you will always have the first time user stop by to ask about "Play on Linux" or some other VM, and I can only express to the other forum members of this community, be gentle. Try your best to answer, then redirect them to the correct forum. In this fashion, if they don't get an answer from the proper forum, at least we tried here.
 
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Old 09-05-2017, 10:37 AM   #60
onebuck
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Member response

Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy View Post
Last year I covered the most common technical Linux issues of 2016 for OpenSource.com. I plan to update the article for 2017 and I'm curious was the LQ community thinks are the most common issues for 2017?

--jeremy
Turn key! Place install media and expect a full working system or application.
Most current issues that I find here at LQ are with new users who fail to prepare themselves for a Gnu/Linux install. Turnkey is not always successful for a mis/uninformed user. Since most of the new users are coming from MS Windows and wishing to have their hand held. This attitude helps no one, especially that new user nor the helping LQ community. I have noticed more seasoned members here at LQ are getting frustrated at times when a user does not make an attempt on their own to even look at the basics or investigation of what may be necessary to even make a install or corrections to that new install. Personally, I do not expect a new user to be a IT/Admin and try to address from that perspective. Gently pointing to a potential solution or the means for that user to read therefore to discern that information to a personal solution.
Sure, trouble shooting is art and does require one to know how to break things down to the simplest form in order to get to a solution.
Quote:
"Knowledge is of two kinds. We Know a subject ourselves, or we know where we can find information upon it."- Samuel Johnson
Lately, some just come here to get spoon fed and not willing to put some sweat into finding information for preparing usage of a Gnu/Linux. In the past we have had issue with a new LQ member not composing a thorough thread/post with relative information. I still use; http://www.linuxquestions.org/questi...#faq_lqwelcome to hopefully get that user some directions as to how to compose a proper post/thread. I even refer to; How to Ask Questions the Smart Way

This happens for a Gnu/Linux install or even applications from a repository.

I still wonder how much this helps when I come across that same poster without providing reference/relative information so we can help diagnose to bring things to a final solution. Redundant requests does not always produce results from those violators. Gun Shy or just flat out lazy? Maybe some issues can be attributed to LQ being a world community and lose due to social factors.

I sometimes reflect that a LQ search will produce loads of relative information to help solve or lead to a solution. Most still fail to use a search since not knowing what the search keys should be. Another lack of thinking for potential keys or not knowing how to form simple searches.
Quote:
A tool is but the extension of a man's hand and a machine is but a complex tool. He that invents a machine augments the power of man and the well being of mankind.” - Henry Ward Beecher
You can hand a person a tool but if they do not know how to use it then that is asking for a futile task. Give them an example and that person not knowing the content then no one is helped. Point that person to helpful documents does not always help since most are just too lazy to read or investigate. Feed me the answer!!

Yes, as a LQ member who has read thousands of posts and learning to use patience to keep from falling into a pit. Mentoring my past students was a lot easier than replying to posts here at LQ. At least when mentoring you could see the results and control that students directions via feedback in order to get positive results. Thus having interaction feedback to help that students progresses.
Hope this helps.
Have fun & enjoy!

 
  


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