Hi all,

I'm a longtime lurker on LQ. Apparently, the last time I actually posted anything, before today, was back in September of 2003. At that time, I was posting a question about multimedia configuration in Slackware 9.1. I'd been using Redhat since 5.2, but I began using Slackware in the 0.9 kernel days. I remember downloading the slackware floppies via 300 baud modem and a remote VMS system connected to the internet (maybe 1992-1993). But enough reminiscence, I just wanted y'all to have a sense of my background before I plowed into the current discussion. In recent days, I find myself using an MX 19.2 (patito feo) base respin by the MX team's m_pav : https://mxlinux.org/uncategorized/mx...rsonal-respin/ and FreeBSD 12.2 with all of its ZFS glory.

Today, as I was browsing on the first of January, in 2021, I thought back to the heady days of using Slackware for the first time and thought to myself, I wonder if Slackware is still around. I did a quick Google search of - is slackware dead in 2020 (nm, that it's 2021, I haven't quite adjusted yet)? and lo and behold, first hit was an LQ posting with that exact question. I read through the dozens of answers, some by highly respected LQ members (high reputation, posts in the the thousands, etc), and was amazed at the diversity of those answers.

What struck me immediately, was how incredibly intolerant the responders were. The OP asked a simple, if seemingly naive, question. Apparently, the OP was thrown off by the fact that the Slackware homepage hadn't been updated since 2016. In various ways, these titans of LQ let the OP know that this was not just naive, but reputation killing, an epic introduction, probably trolling, and the thread should probably be locked and the OP thrown in a dungeon.

I would like to say that I found the OP's question, relevant and interesting, even and perhaps more so, a year later. It's not that I seriously wonder if Slackware is dead, there are plenty of folks out there still using Yellow Dog. But I was curious as to why there hadn't been an update to the front page of the distro in nearly 6 years. Undoubtedly, it is still being maintained/developed - as of Jan 1, 2021, the last commit appears to have been the evening before Dec 31, 2020. But to newbs, is it really that obvious that this means it's still alive?

The thread was closed in July because of a number of personal attacks. Sad. What is your thinking on the matter of civility and dumb (seeming) questions - should a community censure these newbs or the powerful responders who took aim at them? Or, put another way, how can a community remain peaceful with so many levels of understanding and backgrounds.

Thanks,

Will

I haven't seen this thread.

But generally speaking:

If the last time you logged in here was 2003, may I assume that you also haven't used any other forums and FLOSS online communities in the past 17 years?
So:
For you, the question was genuinely "new" - but was it new to the forum and the "newb" in question? You have to understand that not logging in for 17 years is extremly exceptional.
Many people nowadays like to troll, i.e. find the most controversial topic they can think of, one that is guaranteed to bring lots of response and dissent. The assumption that the OP of said thread was a troll is not unreasonable, although one should give people the benefit of the doubt. Many don't do this intentionally, they just pick up on a vibe and want to talk about it. Did they search the forums or the web before asking such a question? probably not. I bet the Slackware forum is full of similar discussions.
That said, I'm not justifying pointlessly vitriolic reactions. And pointless it usually becomes after a few posts...

I wonder if the init wars of the past years also passed you by?

I've noticed that Slackware users are quite "passionate" about their distro, so I think a lot of the thread you speak of (without reading every single post within - although I do remember reading at some of it) is simply just some Slackware users getting offended at the suggestion that it's somehow "dead". A lot of that probably has to do with the fact that the last new release of Slackware was in 30 June 2016. So it's an understandable question that someone new to Linux might have, but some take it too personally and as a perceived insult directed towards Slackware and/or it's users.

I think another part of it is that the demographics have changed considerably when it comes to who is using Linux these days. Back in 2003, it would have been predominantly the technical minded (aka "geeks") using Linux. Nowadays you have all kinds of demographics using Linux for all kinds of purposes, and the public at large is more aware of other choices beyond Windows. Technology in general also plays a far bigger role in people's lives these days, compared to 2003. So LQ has changed as well from what it was in 2003, even from when I first joined in 2009 - and if you ask me, not necessarily for the better either.

I remember the days when we just didn't have all the tutorials, HOWTO guides, etc... how things have changed.

2 members found this post helpful.

We get that sort of question quite regularly, so maybe our patience & tolerance has worn a bit thin. Slackware has not got any kind of scheduled release times, unlike most other distros. New releases come only when Pat Volkerding believes they're good enough.

I remember it quite clearly. I also remember that there had been a whole lot of similar threads in the weeks leading up to it. That's why some Slackware users were particularly irritable at the time. It's a pity all the same that it ended as a flame war and Jeremy had to close it down, because I don't think that gives LQ or the Slackware community a very good image.

1 members found this post helpful.

For the record, I've suspected, for some time now, that some of the trolls on the Slackware forum were Pat himself.

And in regards to the OP of the thread in question: I want you to remember the words of one group of people who made an art out of trolling:

http://evolutionzone.mariuswatz.com/...ctical.faq.txt

I knew exactly what the OP was doing, so I never even bothered to open that thread.

Don't fall prey to the trolls. But Slackers have always been rude, no? At least, IME. Still, I live them.

Ha! Good point about the 'new' to me bit. I guess it just hit me wrong, the way folks piled on responding. I tend to spend my interactive energy over in FreeBSDland where, for the record, we used to be a lot less hospitable. Back in the early days it was RTFM and just write your own device driver if you want sound support kinds of answer, but we have become a lot more tolerant of newbies over the last ten years or so, and so it just seemed harsh to me. On the 17 years front, I have been reading LQ off and on for all of that time, just not posting, so no, I didn't miss too many flame wars - systemd vs all contenders, vi vs emacs, PC vs Mac (not on LQ, but elsewhere), and so on..., those are different in the sense that people are passionate (I prefer rc style init, vi, and Mac) and passionate people go overboard advocating for there positions. Why people would get excited about the latest incarnation of "is java dead, or is python a toy language, or one that's near and dear to my heart - linux is so much more modern that bsd, why would anyone wanna use FreeBSD? . Trolling is bad, I'll give you that, but really, just moderate. If a question is inartfully expressed, don't kill the messenger, and when folks try to answer it and are drawn into vitriol, kill the thread (not 6 months and a gazillion posts later, but when it's clear that it's not asked in good faith.

Thanks for not labeling me a troll and going nuclear . Not that I'd be offended, but I do appreciate the honest attempt to answer. I like LQ and want it to continue to be a user (new and old) friendly hangout.

Fair enough, that's why I posted. I didn't have context. But over the last few years, I've noticed a trend in tech info sites (dare I say Stackexchange and it's brethren) where straight-to-the point questions that could be better expressed are driven out and sometimes it's hard to get to the heart of a matter. The "is slackware dead" question happened to match my exact Google query and to see "my" question getting harsh treatment was a bit of a shock. Of course Slackware isn't dead, but how alive is it? The main page is 6 years old, the referenced changelog is hosted on ftp (long live ftp), and there hasn't been a review on distrowatch in forever. That said, Slackel had a new release today and on distrowatch, slackware is still in the top 40. I think it's a fair question, but I probably would have been more tactful, personally. Thanks for the background.

That's a fascinating read, for sure. Coordinated, team based, malicious intent - ick. Bad enough with the occasional bad apple, but a whole bushel? again, ick!

For the record, if this be true, I would be appalled and disgusted. It would be enough to cause me to abandon Slackware.

Back to the main point of this thread, I can't comment on the thread in question and I have seen occasional threads on LQ get out of hand, but, in the larger picture, I've found LQ to be one of the most civil tech websites I've encountered.

But the point is: while we know better, that doesn't mean everybody else does, particularly those new to Linux. Indeed, just looking at the home page of Slackware's website if I didn't know better, I'd be under the impression that it's "dead" or "dying" since the last update to it appears to be in 2016. And I think that's the problem here more generally, not just with Slackware users in that; some here just love to make all kinds of assumptions without bothering to think about it from the other persons point of view. So in the example of someone asking about whether Slackware is "dead" or not; some here tend to assume: "they must be just shit-stirring if they want to ask such a stupid question". Well perhaps they have just gotten the wrong impression and are asking what they believe to be a valid question? Is there any reason why that just cannot be true? The point is: blind assumption usually ends up in mother-of-all-f*ckups, that's why it's best to try and avoid it in the first place - unless there is honestly no other reasonable explanation or it's blindly obvious.

My point about new releases had nothing to do with what PV's criteria is for releasing a new version of Slackware, and it's beside the point.

I agree, LQ is not very civil.
It is very easy to be called a troll when you have another opinion about things, or another way of saying.

1 members found this post helpful.

Then why did you bother joining here then?? In your introduction thread you claimed to have 'followed this forum for a long time':
https://www.linuxquestions.org/quest...9/#post6199133

...yet you somehow didn't know anything about this forum?

1 members found this post helpful.

Actually this is a pretty civilised forum. In the days when I used mainly Debian, I was registered at their official forum and there was a lot of flaming.