Linux=Chaos... Someone needs to fix the Linux problem

jonaskoelker · 06-16-2005, 06:53 PM

Quote:

I feel nervous about writing this in case i get a barrage too!

Don't be--you seem to have got your act together.

I suggest you read http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

But not for the reason I normally suggest it to people (which is making newbies ask better questions so they can get better)--but to make you (hopefully) understand why Skrilla got boo'ed out.

Quote:

I even had to go to Wikipedia and find out what a troll was! please.. don't hit me!

*hits you*
Look it up in the jargon file instead

http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/troll.html

... or just read the jargon file--some of the articles are quite interesting (as, among other things, a historical perspective).

*looks a post count* Oh, and welcome to LQ

--Jonas

Skrilla · 06-16-2005, 08:04 PM

Look... I love Linux and I know it's potential. I may not be a guru and I'm sure every one of you are far from being all-knowing of Linux. I've always been an idea man and I've always tried to find the best solution for people. I'm not an engineer nor am I a programmer. It takes a great deal of patience for me to compile code all day. Learning Linux has never been a problem for me but I am surrounded by an uneducated market that needs a solution that will work and won't burn a hole in their corporate credit card. So the issue at hand is... the market is not educated... the market is Windows oriented... and Linux has been trying to be a competitor in the Desktop industry for a while. I see the Linux Community spreading themselves out too thin. I do have plans in place that will allow for a basic standardization in the Linux platform but still leave it completely open source. I just wanted to spark some interesting convos. I realize that I came on too strong in what I have been told is a "sensative community". I may be ignorant when it comes to Unix/Linux based OSs but I use the same marketing strategy for almost any product/service.
I work in almost every industry and I'm becoming a part of many others. I don't know everything about each field but I'm trying to learn. I've at least installed Gentoo so I'm not that ignorant about the subject matter. I am only relaying what I have heard from many local SMBs and SOHO users.

So for those of you who want to lash out at me at this point, don't even bother. Your silence speaks more than words. If you have anything decent to say then please post it. If the Moderators of this site prefer that we discontinue this discussion then I am all for it.
"Burn him at the Stake"

jonaskoelker · 06-16-2005, 08:27 PM

Quote:

I realize that I came on too strong in what I have been told is a "sensative community".

You are indeed correct.

Quote:

I may be ignorant when it comes to Unix/Linux based OSs

You are indeed correct.

And remember, it's ok to be ignorant.

I suggest you read http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

In that way, you'll save yourself from many experiences like this one, and (hopefully) have some constructive discussions about the possibilites of GNU/Linux.

I would contend that this thread isn't the right place to do it (it's been quite molested already--by all of us in concert)--better start a new one.

---

Welcome to LQ, btw.

--Jonas

Tinkster · 06-16-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

the market is not educated.

Agreed.

Quote:

the market is Windows oriented...

Sad but true.

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and Linux has been trying to be a competitor in the Desktop industry for a while.

Wrong. Several Linux distributors have (more or less
successfully) tried to slap something together that could
survive in a corporate environment. Linux ISN'T a homogeneous
product, Linux is a kernel, a set of tools, various windowing systems
and countless graphical front-ends on those that a user has the
privilege to assemble at their hearts content.

Cheers,
Tink

crazytigger · 06-16-2005, 09:29 PM

lol well slap me silly ..

thanks jonaskoelker for the links, ive book marked them.

jonaskoelker · 06-16-2005, 09:40 PM

Quote:

thanks jonaskoelker for the links

yw.

Kdr Kane · 06-16-2005, 10:19 PM

Skrilla,

All you had to do was ask "Is there a Linux desktop suitable for an enterprise environment? I'm having trouble seeing how I can deploy Linux and supporting it for business purposes."

This is a good question. And you know what? That would depend on many factors including what types of applications you need. And for that, I would first recommend Novell Linux Desktop (NLD). That's not the SUSE desktop. But again, you'd need to define what you wanted to run. Novell's Linux is fully LSB compliant and probably meets more Linux standards than many other distributions. Anybody can correct me if I'm wrong.

And just to clear it up, I'm not a Linux engineer. I'm a Microsoft engineer. But, when something in Windows doesn't work as designed or is totally undocumented, that's the most frustrating part of my job. At least with Linux, I can go down into the code as deep as I want to determine what is the problem. Windows APIs only give me a black box type of troubleshooting. I will say it, Microsoft sucks. And Microsoft Premier Support sucks worse.

jonaskoelker · 06-16-2005, 10:27 PM

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I will say it, Microsoft sucks.

Ah, how sweet to hear that from an MS engineer.

Quote:

And Microsoft Premier Support sucks worse.

Mmmm... sweet

--
I hope for you that they won't have you job for saying such things

Kdr Kane · 06-16-2005, 10:47 PM

I'll admit it. In my frustration, I've actually said that in conference calls. And that's not a good idea.

Thankfully, it's hard to argue with facts. I'll omit the mundane details. This is a Linux forum after all.

Tinkster · 06-16-2005, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skrilla
For example: When I browse through Suse 9 Enterprise I see a lot of
programs that have short names and no way of explaining what they are.

I can clearly see where you are coming from...

Code:

From c:\windows
.\AMUninst01c.exe
.\hh.exe
.\Installer\{00010409-78E1-11D2-B60F-006097C998E7}\misc.exe
.\KIX32.EXE
.\system32\ahui.exe
.\system32\alg.exe
.\system32\asr_fmt.exe
.\system32\asr_ldm.exe
.\system32\asr_pfu.exe
.\system32\atmadm.exe
.\system32\autolfn.exe
.\system32\cisvc.exe
.\system32\cmstp.exe
.\system32\dllcache\cb32.exe
.\system32\dllcache\conime.exe
.\system32\dllcache\csrss.exe
.\system32\dllcache\evcreate.exe
.\system32\dllcache\msoobe.exe
.\system32\dllcache\osk.exe

From C:\Program Files
.\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\MSInfo\msinfo32.exe
.\Common Files\Microsoft Shared\MSInfo\OFFPROV.EXE
.\Common Files\Network Associates\TalkBack\TBMon.exe
.\Common Files\System\Mapi\1033\NT\CNFNOT32.EXE
.\Common Files\System\Mapi\1033\NT\NEWPROF.EXE
.\Common Files\System\Mapi\1033\NT\SCANPST.EXE
.\Internet Explorer\iedw.exe
.\Java\jre1.5.0_01\bin\orbd.exe
.\Microsoft Office\Office\OSA9.EXE
.\NetMeeting\wb32.exe
.\Network Associates\VirusScan\pireg.exe
.\Outlook Express\wab.exe

All logically named, and highly self-explanatory....

Quote:

I've met a few people from the local linux group here in Houston, TX
and I hear a lot of pessimism. I don't need pessimists and I don't need lack
of confidence in this industry.

The industry is not really a problem: the ones in the
industry who use Linux have people who can handle
it, the ones who don't are happy campers suffering exploits
and virus-scanner-updates every 8 hours.

The pessimism is directed against people without a
will to learn something different. And I share that view,
and take it a notch higher: one shouldn't cater to stupid,
demanding people. Don't get me wrong: I don't disrespect
people with a lower skill-set, they can learn, and I am more
than willing to support. I loathe laziness, though.

Cheers,
Tink

jonaskoelker · 06-16-2005, 11:02 PM

Quote:

I don't disrespect people with a lower skill-set, they can learn, and I am more than willing to support. I loathe laziness, though.

As if taken out of `smart questions'.

And please--stop bashing Skrilla. I know
1) that you get to moderate me and not the other way around; and
2) He has said some pretty stupid things (and, consequently, we've been bashing him)

But he *has* taken a step back, taken a deep breath, exhaled, and come to his senses--it seems like he wants to have a constructive discussion here at LQ. I think you should be making him feel welcome.

Then again: I'm not telling you to do it. I'm asking you to do it.

--Jonas

jonaskoelker · 06-16-2005, 11:02 PM

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I've actually said that in conference calls. And that's not a good idea.

Lol

Tinkster · 06-16-2005, 11:22 PM

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Originally posted by jonaskoelker
As if taken out of `smart questions'.

I'll take that as a compliment

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And please--stop bashing Skrilla.

Where did the bashing happen?

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I know
1) that you get to moderate me and not the other way around; and
2) He has said some pretty stupid things (and, consequently, we've been bashing him)

But he *has* taken a step back, taken a deep breath, exhaled, and come to his senses--

I see a change in tone - not in attitude. And just because
he has decided to tone it down for now doesn't mean that
I can't argue against what he said 10 hours earlier. I'm not
taking a personal stance against him if you have a closer look.

Quote:

it seems like he wants to have a constructive discussion here at LQ. I think you should be making him feel welcome.

He's most welcome. I just hope he never forgets that he's
in "the house of tux" and maybe should make less noise, or
even try to adopt some of the thoughts and habits. When
in Rome ...

Quote:

Then again: I'm not telling you to do it. I'm asking you to do it.

--Jonas

I appreciate that.

Cheers,
Tink

titanium_geek · 06-16-2005, 11:23 PM

skrilla- don't take this as a personal attack ok?

I think most people who have spent a considerable amount of time learning and living in the windows enviroment feel frustrated that all that time and effort is "wasted" when they find linux is different. they seem to forget that there is a learning curve for everything.

we need to understand this and help them on thier way.

titanium_geek

masonm · 06-16-2005, 11:35 PM

Skrilla; You're basing quite a bit on some erroneous ideas about what Linux actually is.

Firstly, the reason there are so many different types of Linux is due to the nature of Linux itself. Linux is not some single company or product. Linux is a kernel. That's it. Even GNU/Linux is really nothing more than a kernel and some tools.

Linux is a concept.

The various distros out there right now are the results of a lot of different people approaching ideas in different ways. Some really good ideas become incorporated into most or all distros. I suppose you could consider those to be standards, and there are some standards in Linux.

Linux is about testing the waters. Finding new and better ways of doing things. This very concept negates the ideas of making Linux into some cookie cutter OS where it looks exactly the same on every box. Much of the really good stuff we have available in Linux today is because of exactly this very idea.

In one sense, each distro is a different OS, they just share some components with each other. Linux is about innovation, not convention, and that's what it's supposed to be. That's how it started, and that's how it will likely always be.

The "Linux community" is not spread too thinly. Everyone works on the projects they want to work on. Again, that's what Linux is supposed to be. That's how innovation comes about. The idea that somehow all Linux developers should all be working on a single monolithic project simply goes against what Linux is really all about and defeats the whole concept.

If you would simply take some time and learn about what we are really about instead of barging in and telling everyone what you think our "problem" is and what you think we should do about it, you might be better received and would learn more. While that may not have been your intention, that IS the way your postings came across.

Linux is not a business. We aren't trying to compete with anyone. Yes, there are some corporate Linux distros, but they aren't the majority of the Linux community. The majority of us use Linux because it works for us. It's really as simple as that.

I hope that helps you understand where we're coming from here.