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development libraries that I will never use? Compiling a kernel is so rare that... oh yeah, it's not.
Cool
Do you use any KDE or GNOME apps? Do you code KDE or GNOME apps? Because if you said "yes" and then "no", guess what? You have libs on your system that you never use! You also have the xlib devel libs as well, if you use X (which I assume you do), and I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that you have never even seen the Xlib API let alone linked against the libs for it (which are necessary to build X and hence are on your system).
You people are too serious about this stuff...man! and sensitive about number of posts.....hmm, when I said I'll take MasterC's word for it, I never said Strike knows less than him...
Are you currently using Mandrake's boot loader? If so, it's likely going to be LILO. In either case it's done in the Mandrake Control Center. Fire up your Control Center and head over to the boot section. Click boot config, and then configure boot loader. Click add and then at this point you've gotta give us some specs or if you see what to do (and are aware of what you are doing) go ahead. Otherwise, post up what you get when you open a terminal and type:
/sbin/fdisk -l
And also tell us where you installed Slackware too (assuming you've already done this).
Originally posted by Strike Hey, just because I never cd into or ls a particular directory doesn't mean I don't know what's in there. I know all of what's in those startup directories, but why should I look in there? Do you open up your case to find out what hardware you have in there? No, you either already know or you use some software that's running on it to tell you what's in there - opening up the case would be overkill, but it doesn't mean you can't do it.
If X was configured improperly, that is your fault. If a graphical login was installed and you didn't want it to be, that is your fault. Yes, the install could use some work, but it's not so difficult that it hides what's being installed from you.
What a regular expert you are.
That's funny, I just ran jigdo-lite, put in one URL, and that was basically it. After it was done downloading, I had working ISOs.
But it is more tested and has nothing critically buggy about it. For a desktop user who uses their computer heavily, I wouldn't recommend "stable" for these very reasons. The simple fact is that none of the stuff in stable will make your system crash and burn, and it's one of the most secure distros out-of-the-box. It's definitely server-grade.
Wow, troll much? You in your vast 24 hours of experience (which I'm sure was a 24 hours of constant use) have no clue of how apt works, I see. And you claim to "want to know how your system works". Funny how I can choose from several versions of most applications I have on my machine, isn't it? If you're just a button-pusher, then that is your fault. If all you choose is apps from the main Debian repository, then that's also your fault. Nothing prevents you from installing third-party debs, even though there are few reasons to do so. Continue bitching about "old software" from a distribution that's not only a year old, but was put into a freeze well before that and was never designed to have up-to-date software anyway. That's productive.
Nice argument. "it's a dumb system" - quality stuff. SysV is more powerful, period. BSD init has no concept of runlevels, period. Stick to the facts and your arguments will work a lot better.
Do what weird? You know, the people who write the software generally know what they are doing, so if you want to "do something weird", chances are you're doing something stupid. However, with that said, it's not very hard at all to modify an existing package. Just apt-get source foo and apt-get build-dep foo, modify the sources, and debuild. Then, ta-da, you have a working .deb to install however you see fit. For someone who's so curious about how your system works, you don't do any research.
Linkage please.
You "theoretically" did? Sounds like you ACTUALLY did. Also, this is a rather complex issue and besides, it's not a fault of the distribution anyway. It's a fault of the software. Talk to the people who build the packages, don't blame the distribution itself.
Not going to argue with you there, but like I've said before, an install should be the LAST deciding factor for choosing a distribution - you only do it ONCE.
From a branch of the distribution that you should know will (for the most part) never ever get new versions of the software and was released a year ago after being frozen for a while.
You say that as if it's a bad thing. It's omnipotent, but it is also UNDER YOUR CONTROL. It doesn't tell YOU what to do, you tell IT what to do. Every aspect of it is configurable.
If by "goofy" you mean "more powerful", sure. Using update-rc.d is hardly goofy and I doubt you've ever even tried it.
Again, link? Besides, better verbose (btw, "excessively verbose" is redundant) than terse.
Lalala, still no evidence of this provided whatsoever.
Did your system ever crash? What was going on when it happened? How can stabililty be overrated or overemphasized? "Bah, this thing's too stable, I need a machine that will just stop working spontaneously!"
Funny thing is, Debian is the same way, ... except with massively better tools. And don't get me started on Slackware's "package management" because that's such a funny ... well, like I said, don't get me started.
Strike, let's do our best to not make personal attacks
The reply to each segment is encouraged, but insults kind of touch the no-no line. This is going well, let's do our best to keep it that way.
Wow, i think i have some fairly good (maybe biased) views about debian and even slack and gentoo: although this thread was answered in somewhat of a Lincoln-Douglass debate format (i just had to think of flowing and going up for CX times, lol)
i think things may have gotten a little intense, i never meant to start a distro war (kind of reminds me of those "console wars" i used to have with my friends: yes u know, the one's about gamecube vs. ps2 vs. xbox)
but wow, thx for the great insight, but i think we can all leave it at that, just insight, we all take pride in what we can do and as Thomas Hobbes basically says: it is natural for man to think himself wiser than others, those who think that they are not wiser than another have an overestimated view of themselves.
this means it is natural for us to think we know a lot more than everyone else because we use a certain powerful distro: from what i can tell, both slack and debian have their stereotypes, there odds and ends; a slacker argues that the lack of user-friendliness proves their superiority over all; a debian-er claims that he is already skilled enough to not waste time with manual installs and all this is alright
though what i can say is that i may very well publish my own findings (unbiased of course) and make for some good evidence so people like strike can be satisfied (btw, r u a debater strike?)
but thx for all your time, especially strike and masterc who probably spent much time coming up with arguments and such and i can see pride coming from both sides (i wish i could have taken part, but i have restricted internet use, but i think anything i would have said was pretty well covered by everyone else)
with that, thx again, wow this place is great!
oh and lxandrthegr8, try a new thread, i don't think your question will get much attention here and i've got to run now
Originally posted by Strike Do you use any KDE or GNOME apps? Do you code KDE or GNOME apps? Because if you said "yes" and then "no", guess what? You have libs on your system that you never use! You also have the xlib devel libs as well, if you use X (which I assume you do), and I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that you have never even seen the Xlib API let alone linked against the libs for it (which are necessary to build X and hence are on your system).
True or not, IF I choose to install an application which does need them, guess what, I know I've got them and don't have to worry about hunting down a -devel package for the exact version of X I've got.
It's the freedom to not have to install 2 packages for one, the ability to do what I want, the immediate ability to build against the libs.
If you go back and read over most of these posts in this thread nearly everyone gives you a "hey that's cool" or "nice point there" concedingly without losing face. However you continually choose to show us how wrong we are without ever giving up. That's fine, it's up to you, however it gives the impression that almost to a fault you'd backup your distro. Is that wrong? You decide. The resounding example to me is:
Quote:
Yeah, but haven't you ever sat in a car that just "feels faster" even at the exact same speed? Without numbers to back things up, you can't say "so-and-so" is faster and be taken seriously by intelligent people. And here are some numbers that though they actually say that Debian is faster than Gentoo in just about every task that they tried, I wouldn't actually read to mean anything other than "compiler optimizations don't really make a big difference, if any". Because they simply do not. As I've said before, the LARGE majority of applications that people use on a daily basis are not CPU-bound at all. So making them squeeze fewer instructions into the CPU to get the same work done won't make them any faster, because that's not the bottleneck. The fact that you do have a compiler churning away for a big chunk of the time before you get the binary that you want, however, now THAT is a noticeable and unarguable difference. The saying goes: "Gentoo users are the people who like to keep their process at 99% load 95% of the time to compile 100% of apps of which only 2% spend even more than 10% of their time doing CPU-bound processes"
Again, no I don't have a fancy bullet print out to pass around, but it's an obvious given that something compiled for a specific architecture is going to be faster than a generic compiling made to work on a blanket number of systems.
By you ignoring this and basically saying "Nah, Debian is still faster" nearly invalidates any decent points you have made. Conceding to a small discrepency to prove an overall point is sometimes the best way to win a debate. Better worded:
Fight only the battles worth winning.
Instead you choose to take on each and every post, all parts of it, and sequentially put it up against the almighty Debian. Regardless if it's true or not, this turns so many people off. They'll read this thread and say "Those Debian people are too religous about their distro". Say what you might, but I'm sure you know in the end that's true.
..."We hold these truths to be self-evident ..." but apparently for you that's not enough..
Originally posted by TheOneAndOnlySM {SNIP}though what i can say is that i may very well publish my own findings (unbiased of course) and make for some good evidence{SNIP}
Yeah, that really is the best way in the end. It's nice to read views on different sides to get a feeling of how things could go, either way. Glad you are going to give it a try for yourself, it's really a good distro.
(Jokingly for those who won't be able to tell): I'd surely recommend it over Lindows anyday.
... that is your fault. If a graphical login was installed and you didn't want it to be, that is your fault. Yes, the install could use some work, but it's not so difficult that it hides what's being installed from you.
quote:I used Debian slightly longer than Mandrake - more than 24 hoursWhat a regular expert you are....
And I am more just trying to "put the cigarette out before it starts a fire" type of a thing, not really dousin any flames yet
Originally posted by MasterC If you go back and read over most of these posts in this thread nearly everyone gives you a "hey that's cool" or "nice point there" concedingly without losing face. However you continually choose to show us how wrong we are without ever giving up. That's fine, it's up to you, however it gives the impression that almost to a fault you'd backup your distro. Is that wrong? You decide. The resounding example to me is:
<snipped for length, discussion of pointlessness of compiling an optimized version of every single library and application on the system>
Again, no I don't have a fancy bullet print out to pass around, but it's an obvious given that something compiled for a specific architecture is going to be faster than a generic compiling made to work on a blanket number of systems.
By you ignoring this and basically saying "Nah, Debian is still faster" nearly invalidates any decent points you have made.
Re-read what I posted. My main argument is most decidedly not "Debian is still faster", my point is that source-based distros, by and large, are not going to produce a significant increase in speed due to the compiler optimizations applied across the board. This lies in the fact that very few apps are CPU-bound. I'm not going to restate all of it again.
Quote:
Conceding to a small discrepency to prove an overall point is sometimes the best way to win a debate.
Yeah well I value truth over "winning the debate". If I see something that I think is untrue or misleading, I will respond to it.
Quote:
Instead you choose to take on each and every post, all parts of it, and sequentially put it up against the almighty Debian. Regardless if it's true or not, this turns so many people off. They'll read this thread and say "Those Debian people are too religous about their distro". Say what you might, but I'm sure you know in the end that's true.
And? If people think that someone being "too religious about their distribution" is a good reason not to try it, then so be it. That's their decision to make, not mine. Truth be told, I'd be glad that someone as narrow-minded as that will not be using Debian. You should pick a distribution based on how it fits you and your needs/wants, not based on how some random guy who also uses that distribution feels about the distribution.
Quote:
[b..."We hold these truths to be self-evident ..." but apparently for you that's not enough..[/b]
Originally posted by MasterC With massive snippets, here's 1 example:
... that is your fault. If a graphical login was installed and you didn't want it to be, that is your fault. Yes, the install could use some work, but it's not so difficult that it hides what's being installed from you.
quote:I used Debian slightly longer than Mandrake - more than 24 hoursWhat a regular expert you are....
Neither of those are insults. It is a fact that if a graphical login gets installed onto a Debian machine, then that means that the person who installed it is at fault for it being there.
The latter is also not an insult, it's merely pointing out the lack of qualification that person has in making value judgements.
That's just the thing though, you don't simply reply to things you see 'misleading or untrue' (unless of course you believe everything any has posted to be misleading or untrue) but rather respond to each and every point made. It comes across as if you are wearing blinders and all you see is 1 almighty distro.
Just tossing in some more humor at the end there again, I'm sorry I didn't add the necessary disclaimer...
It's a quote from The Constitution of the US
Originally posted by Strike Neither of those are insults. It is a fact that if a graphical login gets installed onto a Debian machine, then that means that the person who installed it is at fault for it being there.
The latter is also not an insult, it's merely pointing out the lack of qualification that person has in making value judgements.
I, unlike you, choose to not pull up each and every single post one has made. There are others. It's borderline like I said, just 'stoppin it before it happens' kind of a thing ya know?
And anyone is free to give their 'judgement' on whatever they choose regardless. He's making a few points on his brief experience, does that make his points less valid? By no means. He's giving the point of view that one needs. The newbies point. Without that, a distro has no one new and will die off (newbies are a necessity, not a luxury or burden).
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You people are too serious about this stuff...man! and sensitive about number of posts.....hmm, when I said I'll take MasterC's word for it, I never said Strike knows less than him...
