@Xeratul: “Paying Ukraine” is an easy and obvious choice, and you will soon understand when you look in the dryer …

Historians weren’t kidding when they said that “corruption” has always been the ultimate secret weapon. Sun Tzu also referred to it when he said that “the greatest Art of War is to defeat your enemy without fighting him.” Or the Sage who first said that: “the love of Money is the root of all evil.”

And finally: “History repeats itself.”

Remember: a “rich man” in Phoenix, Arizona (who amassed his ephemeral fortune through dentistry(!)) once built a mansion featuring thirty bathrooms with gold(!) fixtures, more than twenty-five of which were never plumbed in. Before he went bankrupt. Yes, this really happened. (An even richer man, “Gordie” Hormel, the outcast of that canned-meat real fortune, finally bought the property (for a song …) and was then tasked to decide what to do with it.)

Incidentally, “Georgie” was also involved in several other Phoenix-area properties, including ”Arizona’s largest house”(https://northphoenixblog.blogspot.co...250467214.html) and the Wrigley Mansion (one of many …) located there.

Show me where I said there were no Nazis there. I did not say that. They are just far fewer than Putin would have you believe and not in positions to control any major part of the government.Again, show me where I said that. I did not.Which seems to be exactly what you are doing, and lying to try to make it seem so.
Anyone can go back and read what I REALLY said, so your claims about what I said that are false cannot stand.

The USA had both Hitler Nazis (who supported the German/Nazi empire conquering the world) and patriotic American Nazis who fought against Hitler in WW-II (and supported a US POTUS Nazi conquering the world). Both sets of Nazis failed. There is no nation in earth that is immune to having Nazi or other fascist elements, and I never said there was one. Having Nazis does not make a country a Fascist state! Having Nazi elements IN POWER that is bad, and dangerous for every other country where they have influence. There are fewer Nazi fascists in power in Ukraine than there are in the UK or US, and none of those are fascist states.

Take care not to be convinced by Russian propaganda, or spread that cruft!

Sending a message to the Russians who are fighting against Ukraine in Ukraine is pointless, as they cannot stop the war. The one who can, and perhaps the ONLY one who can, is Putin. And Putin does not respond to critics or words as long as he gets his way. Stop him form getting his way by arming Ukraine and he might eventually listen. IF he GETS Ukraine, then he will be motivated to do the same thing again against his NEXT target. We can, and SHOULD, help prevent that.

Correct. Move back to 'border' and problem solved. Russia is still empire building by absorbing it's neighbors though. No different than WWII with Germany and Japan.... Really. Except Russia is doing it one country at a time and as above will do it again and again if Russia gets away with it... And we in the West are mainly just watching it happen with 'some' support.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want to believe about "Nazis." You are also entitled to believe that Vladimir Putin really is about to embark upon world conquest.

Just realize that there are other opinions out there. And, people with deep experiences that they – nationally – will never forget. Putin said that one of the objectives was very specifically to "deNazify" Ukraine. And, you can be damned sure that Russian knows exactly what "a Nazi" looks like. And, what that sort of people can do. So, if they say that the land is full of "real Nazis," I will believe them over you. "Experience matters."

It can't be a secret that Ukrainian hackers and criminal mobs were very effective before the Russian involvement.
I still think this is a fairly large reason Putin attacked. Could be way wrong.

Nobody knows what a Nazi "looks like". Nazis don't wear a sign of Cain on their foreheads, more's the pity. If they did, life would be a lot easier for the rest of us. And a lot of people who "identify as" left wing but hate free speech, hate Jews and hate women (all marks of the original Nazis) would suddenly acquire some unwanted decorations.

This is the crux of the matter I guess. If you deem the Russians to be trustworthy on this matter, then everything else follows.

To be quite correct, there are Russians who have proven trustworthy and that I would believe. Those are NOT the Russians spreading these "Nazi" stories.

what is a "dryer" ?
https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Dryer

maybe he has full internet, without webpage limitation (*propaganda), and he will see your post.
Rather, he should start to play Red Alert on Linux (4UPutin)!!

117 in Brazil...

Seriously?

The other piece of equipment in a laundry, besides the washing machine.

These people are not dumping “money” into this place for any reason other than further enriching themselves.

“What? Still more ‘money?’” Well, some men’s thirst is never filled.

——

“What a Nazi looks like?” Pretending they disappeared with Hitler? Get real. These people paid by far the greatest price in blood during WW2. They will never lose clarity of vision, and they will never forget.

Not promoted no, and the "west" as a whole certainly does not want to focus on that either.

They still exist and are still wielding influence. They saved Ukraine from being overrun just under a decade ago. They were incorporated into the military in 2016 and appointed a new far right commander last year. I suggest that they are very much part of the establishment. If the Russian side overly focused on this, it's not so different to the other side not focusing on it all, among other things... "truth is the first casualty..."

***

Calling this "Russian propaganda" is just a convenient get out. Russia is not "Empire building". The US and UK have been involved in far more foreign military operations than Russia, including invasions, "interventions" and long term occupations. In fact the Ukraine conflict has been a set up from the start, staged to draw Putin into a lengthy conflict, in order to weaken / break that regime and demoralise the population. The bait has always been NATO sanctioned threats near to Russia's borders or against Russia's interests/allies - so Russia reacts... This time, rather then continue a proxy war, Russia chose to respond to a future EU member and NATO aligned state being intentionally set up on its southern border; with military "intervention".

Establishment yes, government not so much. There are Nazi elements in establishments AND governments in the UK and USA, and most other nations. If they are IN CHARGE that is a terrible thing, but their simple existence is less concerning. Convenient, but also true.And yet, that is exactly the goal that Putin has professed to desire for YEARS! He wants to restore the "Soviet Empire" to and beyond its greatest glory, and has said so. Arguable, but not provable. Most of the Soviet interventions have been clandestine and difficult to track and prove. Russia has nothing like an "open records act" that would allow such investigation. Nor has it freedom of the press or freedom of speech, which allows a lot of discussion to be suppressed, I have seen no evidence of that, and the only claims seem to originate with Russian bots or agents. And interesting claim, considering that NATO rejected Ukraine membership and informed opinion was that they MIGHT qualify in a few decades. DECADES! (Of note, they did assure Ukraine that it might one day qualify and would receive consideration when it did so.) The war really started with the invasion of 2014. The legislature had voted to remove the corrupt and suddenly Moscow leaning president and rejecting closer ties with Russia, considering the far greater economic and political advantages of strengthening ties with the west. The immediate economic benefits were the biggest factor, and those reason are still valid today although overshadowed by concerns of war and national security. It is pure conjecture whether Putin thought that invasion would frighten the west, or frighten Ukraine into subservience, but it is certain that it solidified and strengthened bonds between various factions within Ukraine to resist. Even those who wanted Ukraine to become part of Russia, did not want that to happen by violent invasion. What Putin did was actually strengthen the countries determination to resist, and to eventually seek membership in the NATO alliance.

To be fair to Putin, starting a long term conflict did achieve one goal he had: which was to prevent Ukraine from joining NATO. No nation can join the alliance when it is already at war. Keeping Ukraine at war prevents it from joining NATO, but has driven two fiercely independent nations who had always avoided membership to apply to join. I wonder how Putin really feels about this: was it a success, a failure, or a bit of each?

Whilst this is an English-only forum, there are users who aren't native English speakers and I think some understanding and tolerance for a non-native speaker's lack of comprehension of certain idioms, slang, etc. is desirable.


Of course not.


Whilst I can't pretend to know Ukraine inside out, I'm doubtful. The Ukrainian state is rather large and there will be a number of different interest groups and political causes bandying around the country's institutions to repel a common enemy (and, no doubt, try to advance their particular cause during and after the war). But the Ukrainian army is large and the Azov Brigade small in number relative to the whole. Of course, it's impact and influence may be disproportionate to its size, but it seems a real stretch to suggest that the Ukrainian state is, presently, wholly or mostly under the direction of or doing the bidding of neo-Nazis.


If you will re-read my posts in this thread, you will see that not only have I said that Russia isn't on a conquest to build an empire but also that it has fundamental interests at stake in Ukraine. And whilst that wouldn't in itself make me a supporter of Russia, it does mean I can understand Russia's point of view (and sympathise with it as I do not think its position is unreasonable for a major power). And as I do not think that the national interests of the US, UK, France, et al are well served by having Ukraine as a member state of NATO and are (or were, before we drove a wedge between us by arming the Ukrainians) served by keeping Russia on side vis-a-vis China (which shouldn't have been difficult), I am opposed to the EU's pursuit of Ukraine as a member state, the West's initial receptiveness to Ukrainian membership of NATO and subsequently its support for Ukraine.

All that said, that doesn't mean I am going to believe Russian propaganda (by which I mean communications from the state) that are outright lies or fundamental distortions of the truth. And so we come full circle: whilst there are neo-Nazi elements in Ukraine and, separately, there are a number of Ukrainian nationalists that wish to remove from Ukraine any vestiges of its Russian culture and heritage and that a lawful Ukrainian government was replaced unconstitutionally by pro-Western, anti-Russian Ukraine, the suggestion that the Ukrainian state is a neo-Nazi state is nonsense.

EDIT: I should say that I don't believe the war in Ukraine has been engineered (that is, intentionally brought about) by the West. Until not long before Western intelligence agencies began warning of a full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine, I don't think most in the foreign policy establishments in the West really thought Russia would invade. Indeed, many in the Ukrainian state seemed not to believe that Russia would invade when they were warned. But, that said, I'm sure that there are some in the US State Department, UK Foreign Office, etc. that have thought the liberal agenda being pursued by their political masters risked forcing Russia into a corner from which it may lash out and have been happy to see the war take the course that it has, presenting an opportunity to wear down Russia and her armed forces. But most in the West are just drunk on their own prejudices and beliefs and would have been somewhat shocked by Russia's actions.

You ended that with a "Sentence from hell" as my English teacher used to say. ;-)
That said, after careful parsing I pretty much agree with everything you just said. It does not conflict with any informed analysis I have seen, and agrees fairly well with my own conclusions.
That said, I do not think it possible or desirable to eradicate Russian influence or culture from Ukraine. The histories and peoples of Russia and Ukraine are deeply connected at many levels and in both directions. I suspect those Ukrainian nationalists wishing they could end that will be no more successful than those Nazis that want a Fascist government. Ukraine will become a Fascist state only if Russia destroys the current government and replaces it with a fascist who will support Russian interests on Ukrainian interests. If the war ends and Ukraine one day joins NATO, they will still retain their combined culture and heritage. We see this even in Ukrainian communities in other countries: they honor and retain their culture and remember their history (both the good and bad parts).

I would suggest that if Britain or the US had a rather significant military unit, complete with Waffen SS style logo and it's ranks mostly made up of white supremacist, far right synpathisers and "ultras"... most would have a problem with that. If either had deployed those in any theatre of war, we would have a hard job excusing it. The "desperate times" or "enemy of my enemy" theories don't hold weight.

Russia deployed mercenaries, and western media didn't hesitate to dig the dirt there.

"Truth is the first casualty..."

Both sides are lying, both are relying heavily on propaganda, clearly neither side is in the right, but it began with the EU/US backed ousting of the democratically elected leader of Ukraine - which in turn spurred all of this within Ukraine. If you believe that was right - then you're excusing all of the blood, death and destruction that followed. No Russian puppet is worth ejecting from power, and all of the ensuing loss of life and livelihood and misery just to serve some nefarious political end in the latest chapter of the "Cold War II". Russia should not have invaded, but Russia did and there has been no real focus on addressing that - instead we've had floods of armaments and right wing groups gaining ground in the ensuing power vacuum. These groups see their opportunity - and they're going for it. Ukraine doesn't want to highlight that, it needs international support, so it's taking steps to keep these people out of the way and behind the scenes.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/e...-right-go-away

By the way - plenty of Israeli news sources have a lot to say about Azov and the rise of the right in Ukraine... (search the web) they are understandably upset over the duplicity of the "west" in supporting the Ukrainian state.

(a few)

https://forward.com/opinion/552958/w...zov-neo-nazis/

https://forward.com/news/555676/azov...ish-criticism/

I think many have fallen for the new "marketing" surrounding Azov, downplaying the role of the unit and white-washing over it's neo Nazi roots, focusing on the integration of the regiment, and ignoring the newer "Azov Movement" political wing and National Corps party, plus the plethora of other smaller groups. Exposing the influence and increasing power of the right != supporting Putin's propaganda.