Because Shiny Things Are Fun - The New New Windows v Linux Thread

Originally Posted by leopard Windows is awesome. Linux is fantastic. Proprietary software is entertaining, FOSS is downright fun. BSODs SUCK, kernel panics equally so.

Or to take the flip-side: Windows has suck points, Linux has suck points. No OS is perfect.

Originally Posted by MrCode Or to take the flip-side: Windows has suck points, Linux has suck points. No OS is perfect.

Windoze has more, Linux has less. lol For me, other than KDE releasing KDE4 way to early, no suck points. My brother has windoze xp. When I build my rig, I plan to build him one next. It will run Linux. No more windoze. I haven't decided on Mandriva or Gentoo like mine yet tho. Sort of leaning to Gentoo. Shouldn't take long to install it on a 4 core CPU running 3Ghz or so.

Originally Posted by Larry Webb The main reason I do not use windows is the vulnerability to the malware (spyware, viruses, etc.). When my wife had it on her computer it seemed every week I was cleaning or repairing something. I finally refused to repair and put linux full dress (software loaded) on her computer and once she got used to it she does not want the trouble and worry with windows. My post maybe behind the times though because the latest version of windows I used was XP. XavierP - Where is your opinion - you started this

Honest He was,Larry Webb! So, i will eat my words when in that 400(??) page thread,i was just ribbing trying to defend Windows!Who is the donor of so much "BANDWIDTH" that allowed so much volume(400 internet pages), b'cause he sure is a fierce Defender of the Linux Faith! Two days back my desktop was blasted by >100 Rootkits and to add to that breath of a Camel, the BIOS gave up!

As i was trying to install Mandriva 2010 on the repaired PC, i did not know how much space to allot to--/ROOT,/SWAP,/HOME,/TEMP,/VAR.Sorry for the Bold type! Mandriva was asking whether i should use Linux Native and/or other options!So, i went Googling and found this excellent Primer :http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplan...orials/4269/4/. Even the author advises to read further! If not for LQ,i would have been like a one-eyed guy with a faulty compass!

All the above is just to highlight the travails of a Newbie, but no one can blame me for not trying! In India, the Tech.guys are so used to install win., they can do it with one hand tied up behind their backs! Windows( all versions) sucks big time on the Security front! I have win.7 Prof. and i am willing to trade off for a Mandriva (commercial) with all the bells and jingles!

Regards,
vyver.

Originally Posted by vyver Honest He was,Larry Webb! So, i will eat my words when in that 400(??) page thread,i was just ribbing trying to defend Windows!Who is the donor of so much "BANDWIDTH" that allowed so much volume(400 internet pages), b'cause he sure is a fierce Defender of the Linux Faith! Two days back my desktop was blasted by >100 Rootkits and to add to that breath of a Camel, the BIOS gave up! As i was trying to install Mandriva 2010 on the repaired PC, i did not know how much space to allot to--/ROOT,/SWAP,/HOME,/TEMP,/VAR.Sorry for the Bold type! Mandriva was asking whether i should use Linux Native and/or other options!So, i went Googling and found this excellent Primer :http://www.linuxplanet.com/linuxplan...orials/4269/4/. Even the author advises to read further! If not for LQ,i would have been like a one-eyed guy with a faulty compass! All the above is just to highlight the travails of a Newbie, but no one can blame me for not trying! In India, the Tech.guys are so used to install win., they can do it with one hand tied up behind their backs! Windows( all versions) sucks big time on the Security front! I have win.7 Prof. and i am willing to trade off for a Mandriva (commercial) with all the bells and jingles! Regards, vyver.

There maybe be many different Linux Distributions out there but the heart of it all is Linux. The differences are the Desktop Environment or Window Manager, Package management, if any, and tools used/things installed by default. The main problem with all of that is people see each Linux variant as a separate operating system. Something they have to learn from scratch each time, though that is not true and they learn that after they try and stick with Linux. Linux is easy, depending on your needs and wants.

Ubuntu for example is making it extremely easy to use for those just coming over from Windows or that duel boot. The cloud computing fad will get people familiar with Linux in a general, vague sort of way to.

But you are right. A lot of Windows tech people are really clueless if they had to actually think (I said a lot, not all. Those that work on Windows machines, don't get your panties all in a bunch.) There are, in my opinion, many limitations when Windows has problems. Also, by default, a lot less tools to work with, for example, if someone calls a Windows tech support number (or even forum,) for the tech or tech's to work with. Linux is the polar opposite in that area. So more thinking is required.

I think the main thing that needs to happen is this. We will always and should always have a FOSS/GNU/Linux. But if we had a couple of companies that marketed, better marketing then Xandros or Linspire (formally Lindows,) for example. But charging for the actual OS, updates or the option to get new releases first (Like Mandriva use to, still does?)is not going to work. The actually Operating system, FOSS version for free always but under a different name then the commercial one that company has. Charge for support, first couple of months free to help people get use to it, etc. Also creating contracts with software companies to add full versions of a product for a general bulk fee plus demos, etc, from other programs. Create a user club similar to Mandriva has but at no extra charge other then the cost of the commercial Linux OS that was bought.

There are many other ideas. But the bottom line is that there needs to be three levels of Linux Distributions that are constantly talked about. First level would be those who use Linux From Scratch, Arch, Gentoo, etc. Those not afraid of getting their hands dirty. Second level could be distributions that are easier but still require some knowledge or capability from the user to learn a little more and think. Both Levels one and two can have the word "Linux" in it, Like Arch Linux, etc. Now level three is the commercial level that goes by the product name only. For example, Ubuntu, etc. This is and has to be the most easiest to use. Easiest to set up, and so on.

Windows, because of business practices, etc, is the one people know. The one that comers pre-installed on the brand new computer you bought from Dell, Walmart, etc. It is the one that has had some very aggressive PR and the one that companies make software for. So the main problem is that Windows is not better then Linux it is just more known and more used because that is the one that is forced by default on people that buy pre-made computers.

At one time people used leeches and superstition to battle medical issues. It was popular and easier but that didn't mean it was better or even good.

When Video tapes first came out we had Beta (which was superior,) and VHS. Popularity started leaning towards VHS rather then beta, even though beta was so much better and even smaller, easier to store. It is all marketing.

Yeah I know the above is not complete and needs some fine tuning and I jumped around a bit. But Linux really is better then Windows in so many different ways.

There are many other ideas. But the bottom line is that there needs to be three levels of Linux Distributions that are constantly talked about. First level would be those who use Linux From Scratch, Arch, Gentoo, etc. Those not afraid of getting their hands dirty. Second level could be distributions that are easier but still require some knowledge or capability from the user to learn a little more and think. Both Levels one and two can have the word "Linux" in it, Like Arch Linux, etc. Now level three is the commercial level that goes by the product name only. For example, Ubuntu, etc. This is and has to be the most easiest to use. Easiest to set up, and so on.

Why do you think that the easy distros shouldn't have Linux or GNU/Linux in their name?

the one that is forced by default on people that buy pre-made computers.

I always thought that pre-installed operating systems do more harm than good.

Sure you can argue that many people don't know what an OS is, but I think that that's something they should learn about before buying a computer. At least a little paragraph that explains that it's the software that lets other programs share the computer's resources, and that each OS will work and feel differently, and that programs for one OS won't work for another.

Another advantage is that computer manufacturers won't have any means of stuffing the OS with crapware that nobody wants.

I guess that the best solution might be to have a short explanation of what an OS is, and then provide a choice of preinstalled OSes, including the choice of no preinstalled OS.

Why do you think that the easy distros shouldn't have Linux or GNU/Linux in their name?

Thanks to Microsoft they have given Linux a bad name. For example one needs to be a computer geek. One must code in order to use Linux, Linux is too hard to use, it will ruin your computer, etc.

Taking the Linux part out of the official name would avoid these issues and misinformation. Plus the easy distro's could simply state all the features, get people using it and seeing for themselves how great it is. Then when they find out it is Linux they may say something like, "Really? Wow. But it is so easy to use, secure and just works."

I guess that the best solution might be to have a short explanation of what an OS is, and then provide a choice of preinstalled OSes, including the choice of no preinstalled OS.

This is logical. Problem is we do not live in a logical society.

[B]QUOT[B]Ubuntu for example is making it extremely easy to use for those just coming over from Windows or that duel boot."-true-Amdx2.

To a certain extent true! When the 10.10 phases over after SIX months to a new Avatar,the newbie is confused! You may say that the TWO year support version LYNX is there, but the features are much less than in the MM version! These things do matter,because i would like to know why UBUNTU and other Linux flavors release updated versions at regular intervals! You may say bug fixing, improved features,etc. The real downside is the newbie gets to know that while others have moved on, he is stuck trying to come to grips with the version on his system!

Amd2 said all Linuxes are same! This newbie begs to differ a litte! UBUNTU has no need for RPMS!(Unravelling the TAR.GZ s is good enough!)Fedora uses them. In the days of Fed.8,9 these RPMs were 3rd party and are incorporated in the newer versions,aint they? I am not yet adept at using CLI(CLUE),but if you read blogs on Linux, it sounds as if Linux is an exotic Italian dish brought to your table at home along with a waiter,whispering in the ear how to eat right and no charges! One blog says" YOU NEED NOT KNOW LINUX TO USE LINUX"! Such unwarranted and misleading info',is honey dew to people who are forever updating their security in Win.to keep the bad ones out! Once they jump over the fence to Linux, the scenario is less rosey and now they have to start "learning Linux"! I agree that at the end the fruits of labor are sweet indeed! WHO WILL TELL THEM THAT A LITTLE PREP. BEFORE ENTERING THE LINUX WORLD, WILL EASE THE TEASE?(Sorry for the bold type).
Regards,
vyver.

I never say that Linux is like Windows.

In fact, I say that you should prepare to relearn using a computer almost from scratch.

Originally Posted by dalek Well I'm about to build a new rig. I already got the case and P.S. This is the basics: COOLER MASTER HAF 932 RC-932-KKN1 Case Thermaltake TR2 TRX-650M 650W ATX Power Supply ZALMAN CNPS10X FLEX CPU Cooler. I hope it fits. lol GIGABYTE GA-770T-USB3 AM3 Mobo AMD Phenom II X4 945 Deneb 3.0GHz Socket AM3 125W Quad-Core Processor. Wish I could find the OEM version of this. G.SKILL Ripjaws Series 4GB 240-Pin SDRAM DDR3 1600 memory You can bet that rig will never see windoze either. I figure that will be better than the one I have now. My old one is about 7 or 8 years old. I think it is in my sig too.

At the time I worked by a internet pc vendor, I have made the experience, that it is never a good idea, to put faster RAM then DDR3-1333 into a AMD system, if you think
about upgrading your RAM to 8GB in the future. We had problem over problem with this combinations. Go for DDR3-1333, and you will be on the safe side, the performance drease is not even feelable.

Regarding the Zalman heatsink, I have the same case, and the cooler that doesnt fit into that case has still to be built. But I heard that this cooler should be loud (I don't know, never heard one), so I would recommend the Scythe Mugen 2 Rev.B. I use it, and it cools so good, that the motherboard (similar to yours, but without the T, so using DDR2) doesn't even start the fan in normal use (surfing the net, or watching a video, if it isn't flash).

Originally Posted by TobiSGD At the time I worked by a internet pc vendor, I have made the experience, that it is never a good idea, to put faster RAM then DDR3-1333 into a AMD system, if you think about upgrading your RAM to 8GB in the future. We had problem over problem with this combinations. Go for DDR3-1333, and you will be on the safe side, the performance drease is not even feelable. Regarding the Zalman heatsink, I have the same case, and the cooler that doesnt fit into that case has still to be built. But I heard that this cooler should be loud (I don't know, never heard one), so I would recommend the Scythe Mugen 2 Rev.B. I use it, and it cools so good, that the motherboard (similar to yours, but without the T, so using DDR2) doesn't even start the fan in normal use (surfing the net, or watching a video, if it isn't flash).

I picked that memory because it says on the Gigabyte website that is works. When I was googling around, I actually found one rig that was maxed out at 16Gb. Sorry, didn't save the link. Maybe this is something that has been fixed. Maybe a BIOS update or something. I do plan to max it out tho. I use Linux and I want to put the directory where the compiles are done in ram instead of on the hard drive. Some people have done this and it speeds up compiles a lot. I'll do some searching on this tho.

I read about the Scythe cooler last night. I have my mobo locked in but I am still making adjustments on the cooler and a couple other things. I'll give it another look.

I'm going to get a Antec 300 case for my brother. I'm not real sure what to put in his since the case is smaller. It's not as wide as my HAF 932 for sure. I been looking at these:

COOLER MASTER Hyper 212 Plus

COOLER MASTER Vortex Plus RR-VTPS-28PK-R1 I don't like the smaller fan on this one tho.

Thermaltake CLP0579

Scythe SCRT-1000

Two of those are tower types and I like those. Two are like little pancakes and I'm not real big on them but they are shorter. Anybody know the max height that will fit in a Antec case?

Sorry off topic but it is going to be running Linux and not windoze.

Originally Posted by vyver [B]QUOT[B]Ubuntu for example is making it extremely easy to use for those just coming over from Windows or that duel boot."-true-Amdx2. To a certain extent true! When the 10.10 phases over after SIX months to a new Avatar,the newbie is confused! You may say that the TWO year support version LYNX is there, but the features are much less than in the MM version! These things do matter,because i would like to know why UBUNTU and other Linux flavors release updated versions at regular intervals! You may say bug fixing, improved features,etc. The real downside is the newbie gets to know that while others have moved on, he is stuck trying to come to grips with the version on his system! Amd2 said all Linuxes are same! This newbie begs to differ a litte! UBUNTU has no need for RPMS!(Unravelling the TAR.GZ s is good enough!)Fedora uses them. In the days of Fed.8,9 these RPMs were 3rd party and are incorporated in the newer versions,aint they? I am not yet adept at using CLI(CLUE),but if you read blogs on Linux, it sounds as if Linux is an exotic Italian dish brought to your table at home along with a waiter,whispering in the ear how to eat right and no charges! One blog says" YOU NEED NOT KNOW LINUX TO USE LINUX"! Such unwarranted and misleading info',is honey dew to people who are forever updating their security in Win.to keep the bad ones out! Once they jump over the fence to Linux, the scenario is less rosey and now they have to start "learning Linux"! I agree that at the end the fruits of labor are sweet indeed! WHO WILL TELL THEM THAT A LITTLE PREP. BEFORE ENTERING THE LINUX WORLD, WILL EASE THE TEASE?(Sorry for the bold type). Regards, vyver.

What I mean is the heart of Linux is all the same. When you get to the package managers, tools, etc. Then there are differences.

My two favorites, for now, are Arch and Debian. I seem to bounce back and forth between then two. They are both Linux, the foundation is the same but they do things differently then one another. I think Debian is easy but those new to Linux would be lost. I would never recommend Arch to someone new to Linux unless I new they would be able to work through it, learn and understand.

I say Ubuntu, but they are going in a weird direction. I really hope it all works out for them. Nothing but love for Ubuntu, but I do like Debian better

This is one thing I love about Linux. Microsoft Windows has many issues and it takes them, at times, very long to address them and fix them. Days, weeks, months even. With Linux in general I tell people that with the whole community seeing the problem and many developers around the world working on packages, etc. That things are updated to the latest, security risks are fixed fast (99.7% of the time.) Windows is unable to do this because it is closed source. So it gives a false sense of security by not being updated as much and as often as a Linux Distro.

One argument I remember hearing is that when the source code is available, open source, it is less secure because some will see it and find ways to exploit problems. I honestly, for over ten years now, have not seen that happen at all. I have seen the opposite. A security risk of any sort is seen. It is broadcasted to all and it is fixed that fast. Not what they are saying that it will be used and exploited and the world will come to an end.

Originally Posted by dv502 I remembered when Micro$oft tried to eliminate Apple and the Macintosh. And Apple is still here. The only difference is Apple had the money to fight back against micro$oft. Still...micro$oft is trying do the same today to linux and these people don't see the type of company microso$t is.

As a matter of history, Apple had had it by the mid/late '90s. They were on their way out.

Microsoft made a substantial infusion of capital into Apple, and committed to supporting Office for Mac, and that is the only reason Apple survived.

Of course, at the time, Microsoft had major problems with anti-trust actions around the world, and watching Apple falter and die wouldn't have helped that case...

Originally Posted by dalek WARNING: Slow typer. Someone may answer the question while I'm trying to type it in. Oh, I type bad too.

I just noticed your signature. And here I thought Daleks could do a billion computations a second.

Originally Posted by vyver Amd2 said all Linuxes are same! This newbie begs to differ a litte! UBUNTU has no need for RPMS!(Unravelling the TAR.GZ s is good enough!)Fedora uses them. In the days of Fed.8,9 these RPMs were 3rd party and are incorporated in the newer versions,aint they? I am not yet adept at using CLI(CLUE),but if you read blogs on Linux, it sounds as if Linux is an exotic Italian dish brought to your table at home along with a waiter,whispering in the ear how to eat right and no charges! One blog says" YOU NEED NOT KNOW LINUX TO USE LINUX"! Such unwarranted and misleading info',is honey dew to people who are forever updating their security in Win.to keep the bad ones out! Once they jump over the fence to Linux, the scenario is less rosey and now they have to start "learning Linux"! I agree that at the end the fruits of labor are sweet indeed! WHO WILL TELL THEM THAT A LITTLE PREP. BEFORE ENTERING THE LINUX WORLD, WILL EASE THE TEASE?(Sorry for the bold type).

Ubuntu's equivalent to the RPM (which is the same for Debian, where it originated) is the .deb file. It is also a software archive. just in a different format.

Please also note that both the Debian package and the RPM are very poorly designed package formats. Too many metadata files as well as cpio and ar for archive formats instead of tar. I mean sure, you do find cpio archives in Linux a lot (try extracting the initrd and you'll find an example of it), but it is a weird archive format in a sense that there is no single efficient means of extracting cpio archives if they're compressed with other compression algorithms (such as gzip). That means that, for example the initrd, you have to pipe one command through another just to extract the archive. The same goes for ar.

I like both Linux and Windows equally as much in different ways. I run W7 on my PC and Ubuntu on my laptop. I work with Unix, Windows and Linux. IMO all of the mainstream OS's are all very, very good at what they do. Without each OS bringing different features to the table we wouldn't be where we are today.

I just cannot criticise MS for making so much money. The fact that they have made so much and continue to have great market shares is a testament to the company. The next 5-10 years are going to be awesome for technology.