Err ... Why?
Am I a hypocrite for spending my (non-paid) free time with the Debian project while still liking Slackware as much as ever?

If anything, the huge amount of "views" show
how people still care.

Slackware will probably outlive us all.

PS: For those lacking a pure UNIX OS, after the huge public outcry (http://boycottlinux.org/), Alan Cox just fixed that (you will need a more UNUXY chip based on Z80 though):

https://plus.google.com/111104121194...ts/a2jAP7Pz1gj

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Perhaps the difference is more of attitude than mere awareness. Slackware acts like the pragmatic heir to a noble heritage. Some of the new distros seem embarrassed by their heritage, and spend a lot of time and resources trying to run away from it.

If that's your response you misunderstood my point. Yes, shell scripting is shell scripting. When you learn on Slackware, shell scripting is a big part of what you learn, and even if small adjustments have to be made shell scripting is shell scripting and when you find yourself on a different *nix you wont be totally lost. You'll have the conceptual tools needed to get the job done, because you have learned a tool that is general, extensible, portable, and powerful.

On the other hand, if you learn on a newer distro you will more than likely learn a lot less shell scripting, because for task after task that Slack accomplishes in a transparent and standard way, you are now directed instead to some sort of value-add GUI tool. You learn where to click in your DE to get that tool and where to click in that tool to get the result you want. Which is fine to a point. But you dont even need to move to a different *nix to hit that point. Just develop some sort of minor problem that interferes at some point with that GUI tool or any of the dozens (hundreds?) of components it relies on and what you have learned goes poof, it's no longer useful in the slightest.

True enough, but doesnt change the fact that a distro that relies on standard tools more will be a better distro to learn on, if you care about portable skills.

Linux is not an OS, period. Linux is a kernel, on top of which many different OSs are built.

And I should be allowed to make my point without it being exaggerated into a colossal straw man. Reliance on standard tools instead of fancy proprietary gee-whiz packages makes it a good choice for education. Does not mean that it's somehow a necessary requirement for learning. Someone that is really set on learning will learn even in a less than ideal environment of course.

So just how does someone that "doesn't want to learn" shell-scripting going to expect to get things done then?

To the degree that's possible and sensible. But not all wants are indeed possible or sensible. I *want* a magical ball of code I can drop into any system, any kernel, any version, and let it just take care of everything. It will keep me safe and secure and keep my system stable and when things go wrong it will fix them before I even notice them, who wouldnt want that?!?

Well anyone that understands how computers work knows that the magic ball is a fairy tale, and anyone selling it is a con artist. So no, I do not really want the ball. But if I were less informed I would.

It's legitimate to try to give people what they want, but it's also legitimate to stop and ask yourself if they really know what they want. If you give them what they think they want, because of inadequate understanding and/or marketing influence, but it does not really meet their needs, they will not thank you in the long-term.

Another motto that captures this dilemma is "make everything as simple as possible, but no simpler."

Not everyone wants to or even needs to use a computer? I suppose that's still true. But for anyone that does want or need to use a computer, why would they go from that logic gate to the next and decide they do not actually want or need to learn the single most useful tool the computer has to offer?

I suppose it's possible but it seems likely to be a pretty tiny demographic.

I'm not telling anyone they *must* do anything. I'm also not going to kid someone and tell them they do not *need* to learn something just because they do not *want* to learn it. It's a powerful tool, and an excellent one in so many other ways as well, and if you want that power then you need to learn it. If you think you can get that power by learning to click on a GUI you are kidding yourself, and I would not be doing you any favors by playing along.

I taught an octogenarian a little bit of shell scripting just a short while ago. And taught him to do a job he had been doing weekly for 30 years now in half the time. He was amazed, and effusively grateful. I guess you think I should be ashamed of myself, forcing the poor old fellow to learn something he did not want to learn.

There's a fine line between being tolerant of other people's choices, and being tolerant of BS. The latter helps no one.

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Slackware:
1. Does not use PAM
2. Uses SysV Init in a non-standard BSD-style
3. Does not teach anything about dealing with dependency-resolving package managers, which require a lot of additional knowledge and experience to deal with conflicts

When you learn Slackware, you learn Slackware, plain and simple. When I have to use Debian I am constantly cursing because of how different it is (and many of those differences are not at all aligned with my preferences or philosophies). Slackware makes things 'simple' (not 'easy'), but many other distros do things their own way. My Slackware experience has taught me enough to *get by* on any distro, but whenever I have to do something more, I have to futz around and research the 'proper' way to do something so it doesn't mess up the package manager or won't get overwritten by package updates etc.

I think the saying about Slackware teaching you 'Linux' has always just been something Slackers say to make them feel smart or superior. You can learn the same basics on any distro, and whenever you move from one distro to another, whether it's from Slackware to Debian or vice versa, or from any dissimilar distro to any other, there will be frustration and learning curves regardless unless you want to introduce a million hacks. Doing things the right way requires learning what the 'right way' is on any given distro unless you want the system to become unmanageable. Try to configure exim4 or apache on Slackware vs. Debian and you will quickly see that your experience in one will have done little to prepare you for the other. Being able to produce installable packages on Slackware is a very far cry from being able to do the same on most other distros, which require dependency specifications and learning about the package format and related tools.

As for teaching everyone to script -- some people just don't care enough about computers and have no desire to put in the time to learn shell scripting, even if it would make their lives easier in the long run. *THIS IS A VALID REASON* for not wanting to learn it. Not everyone wants to drive a stick shift just because it gives them more control; some people just don't care enough about cars and are happy just getting by with automatic transmission.

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This.

Regards.

Hallelujah!

People forget SysV is a spec, not a specific implementation.

Slackware uses an implementation that is unusually easy to work with.

Yes, Slackware avoids all those self-inflicted problems, and you turn that into a criticism? Astonishing.

You might want to file a bug report. Probably a better use of your time in such a situation to just install Slackware though.

Who told you you get to decide what a *VALID REASON* is or is not?

The way you've laid it out here, someone refusing to learn something they have a need for, that in your own words 'would make their lives easier in the long run' is behaving stupidly. You may want to 'validate' that stupidity but I do not and will not, it would serve neither me nor our hypothetical users.

Of course what they *do* is their choice, not mine, and not yours. The difference is you will encourage and apologize for stupidity, and I will not.

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TRUE

A simplified distribution forces its users to find complex solutions to simple problems.

Cheers.

What? I wasn't criticizing Slackware (or any other distro) at all. I was pointing out Slackware's *differences*, not its weaknesses, that show that learning Slackware most certainly does not fully prepare you for using another distro.
It's not a bug if it is by design, and in some cases using Slackware isn't practical (either because you need to use a well-known system to future-proof for other/future admins, or because you are using a remote host that does not allow a Slackware installation. For the latter you can sometimes 'bootstrap' a Slackware installation to replace an existing installation of another distro, but if there is no rescue console and reinstalling costs money, or if the work to install Slackware on such a system that doesn't support it in any way is more work than just using another distro, then you're best not using Slackware). It should be quite clear at this point that I already use Slackware wherever I can.
And why, then, are you allowed that distinction?
There are lots of things that can be made easier in the long run after intense study. Not everyone focuses enough on computers to want to take a PhD in computer science. There is a line *somewhere* between what is a reasonable amount of work for future pay-off, and what isn't. Everyone is allowed to define that line where they wish; if they don't care and just want to point and click in ignorance, they are free to do so. Everyone is ignorant in some matters and time is finite; deciding what to prioritize is a personal choice. I don't knock others for deciding what to take an interest in. You apparently do. Also, see here.

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Well, why don't y'all just wait until Slackware adopts systemd before feeding this thread again?

PS Yes I'm feeding it too by posting this, but that's just one post out of 173 at time of writing

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We all know that what PV decides will be good.

He knows his options, and what you can do is ....
keeping watching the ChangeLog.txt
and keep testing -current

I'm tired of hobbyist used to bright in their neighbor, when talking to a specialized forum, forget they have "in front of them" some times seasoned professionals, and tell "absolute truth" not being ashamed of speaking stupid arguments... In France we call that "the leader of the sandbox" (yes the child sandbox)...

"In such a situation" you should just avoid writing...

"In such a situation" maybe, if you had a real job in the real life with real people who don't even know about slackware or what a shell is... Maybe.. even if you are, like me a bashaddict, a ratpoisonner and an exclusive Slackware user for my personnal usage for ~20 years... Then maybe.. guess what... YOU CAN'T...

Because you have clients (kings), bosses, grandmas, kids etc. etc.

I love Slackware, I'm happy with Pat decisions and globally I like this community... But When I read things like that... I just can't understand... In which "golden jail" are you stuck to give those out of reality "advices" (in that case it's worse, it's close to be a criticism of the point of view you can't reach).

Cheers

Garry.

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You sound quite upset. A decade ago I got easily upset by stuff like that, too, but then I managed to successfully exit out of IT. Best decision ever. Profession is a choice after all. Just because once upon a time one liked to tinker around with 8/16 bit computers, that doesn't mean one has to do that for a living an entire life long, eating everything up that fells out of IBM/RH/MS and others to come.

a short story

one day some years ago (way before systemd) i had nothing to do
so bored as i was and curious as i am i decided to find out how my computer boots
at the time i had fedora installed and after a few hours trying to figure it out i quit thinking i had to learn python

years later, after i stopped distro hopping and settled on slackware
there was another boring day
this time it was easy to find out what a linux powered computer does when its starting, as slackwares init is basically just 2 scripts

systemd, ofc, will make it impossible to learn what an init does


another bad experience i had with fedora was when i updated some packages what caused a program to stop working
after some 15min i found out that the problem was with a config file not updated properly
so i logged in as root and changed the offending line and the computer froze instantly
even though i turned of selinux policies (do i need a book to change a line in a config?)

with debian i had completely unrelated packages being pulled in for no reason what so ever

slackware, on the other hand, was one of my first distros
it never stood in my way and it never broke by itself
then again it gave me the power to screw it up myself
and screw it up i did, many times
and i spent a lot of time fixing after myself

all in all don't get me wrong
you CAN learn how linux works on any distro
but you can learn a lot easier on a simple system then on a complicated one
slackware goes one step further in that you have to know some things to do some things that are automatic on "grand" distros
and if you look in configs you will find lots of comments and in directories lots of README files, that other distros don't have
also the slackbook mostly talks about standard cli tools that work on any distro


even having said that, i learned most of what i know about linux from random places on the internet
but slackware thought me the basics of linux as a system

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Yes sorry I'm upset... No I'm not a "usual IT", I'm first a developer, a game developer.
It's just the principle to say "it simple, I did it" which upset me... If everybody had the same "talent" and say, it was IT... Well nobody would eat... No more farmer... At one point, "our" solution is not "the" solution, and saying "you should just do that" whereas we leave as a society and we need to talk to each other and decisions are not from one "illuminated" guy, but must "please" a bunch of other people...

So yes "theoretically" a lot of things are possible, and I, for myself and myself only am elitist... But I don't ask other to "know" what I know, or to be able to do what I did. And if I'm a fan of irony, and love to laugh while working, I find "sarcasms" toward different view / capabilities a bit "over pushed".

BTW, other things in life prevent people to be free, if I had the choice, I'd just do a "simple job" in the country... I don't have the choice, because of my family being spread around the world... So you'll tell me "You should just forget your son" ?

Sorry to be out of topic. I love Slackware philosophy, I'm not pleased with systemd design and "surface", but I really don't know what I'd do if ever Slackware become systemdeaded. Maybe I'll keep it, maybe I'll change, maybe I'll become a Mc Donald's burger cook because I can and should change my job.

Cheers

Garry.

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We can argue whether or not there is such a category as 'defective by design' I suppose. I would suggest it is indeed a bug, although there is no point in reporting it to people that clearly will not classify it as such, and a better use of time to simply install a system that behaves.


The implication that future admins would be incompetent to administer Slackware, yet capable of keeping a more troublesome system running properly, is simultaneously insulting (to those future admins, who more than likely would thank you rather than cursing you for using something maintainable) and nonsensical (because a deficiency that would prevent someone from competently administering Slackware is a deficiency that would prevent someone from competently administering any OS.)

And why on earth would I ever pay for a remote host that would not allow a Slackware installation? Come on.

I disagree, you would be better off using a different host.


Really?

No disagreement there.

I'm not 'knocking' anyone for anything. We all do stupid things sometime, myself emphatically included. Stupidity does not get better just because you call it something more polite. It gets better when you notice your own stupidity, and learn from it. Ignorance (not the same thing, but closely related) is similar. We're all ignorant of something or another. People that tiptoe around our ignorance as if they think it rude to mention are not helpful. People that will say 'hey, look there!' when you are failing to see something - well not always helpful, but at least there is a chance.

I know you were joking, the thing that gave you away was you used the word soccer. From my experience Europeans use the word football.

If I may just say you are one Slacker who I do take note of what you say, why? because you do appear to be a moderate Slacker. This post proves that point to me even more.

I woudl agree with the attitude assumption you see Slackware is an OS it can't act like anything, it is an inanimate "thing" that has no life of its own. Suggesting Slackware is something more than it really is certainly doesn't show awareness but it does show attitude.

I don't have a problem with this the problem is the suggestion that users of other distros are somewhat forced to use "propritary" application to do what you can do with a script.

Again the assumption is being made that users of "newer" distros will automatically use a gui. Sorry but that is wrong. You probably wont believe me but when I was using Ubuntu I avoided gui tools and got into the actual files that controlled various things. I even wrote tutorials about it. Your assumption is wide ranging and based on my personal experience is incorrect.

"If you care" most people just use a computer to do basic things like use the internet, watch vidoes, use an office suite. You, and I, like to get deeper into things. You use SLackware as your learning tool, I use various distros and one is no better than any other because I am able to use each as a learning tool.

I grant that but when we have multiple people discussing the topic and someone says you want to learn Linux learn Slackware then the lines of demarcation are fluid. Using Slackware is using an OS and that is why I said if you want to learn Linux learn (not copy and paste) LFS. Slackware is already put together for you LFS isn't.

So youa re saying others cannot make their points without you doing the same. You see the difference here is I am not ignorant of the Linux ecosystem, I do not reject any part of it based on an overwhelming feeling of Slackware being the best OS and that people who use other distros are not going to learn anything useful.

One minute you are saying I am creating a colossal straw man the next you deliberately use emotive phrases such as "fancy proprietary gee-whiz" to make a point based on the other persons perceived lack of knowledge.

That is not what I said so I would most certainly appreciate it if you stopped twisting my words. Learning things like scripting is learning Linux, learning Slackware is not learning Linux but it is learning Slackware.

And who are you to decide for every Linux user, or even every PC user what is possible and sensible for them?

And this has what to do with anything I said? Is this not the beginning of a strawman argument?

Who are you to decide what someone else wants?

The only dilemma I see is the dilemma presented to you concerning the fact that you see to think you know what people want better than they do.

Going by this we would all be using Windows.

Seriously? You think that a large percentage of people want to learn shell scripting?

Your not doing anyone any favours by thinking that you know what everyone else wants, or even needs.

Turn off the emotive tap, I have never suggested you should be ashamed of yourself for helping others. If someone wants to learn a new thing then so be it if they don't then let them be.

You're right I'm going to become intolerant really soon with some of the BS you are posting. You see the problem is you just don't get that you don't control what others want or need. Linux is about freedom of choice, well it is to me anyway, I can sue a variety of distros and have freedom of choice to use a variety of methods to control my system. You seem to think people need to learn Slackware if they want to use Linux, this is just a huge fallacy. Slackware is a brilliant OS but it is not the only OS people can learn Linux on and people should never be made feel inadequate for the skills they have learned through using other Linux distros.

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