_blackhole_
I am not saying you are entirely wrong, because I see some valid points there, but I think you are AZOZ obsessed. The west is not supporting Ukraine because of AZOZ, they are supporting Ukraine IN SPITE of AZOZ and because there are more important factors in play and more important things at risk!

The Russians paid by far the greatest price in blood during WW2. “Victory Day” is a somber national holiday, and everyone carries a black-and-white photograph: sometimes many. They will never forget, nor forgive, what “Nazis” did to them.

So, when they say that Ukraine is infested with “real Nazis,” and list “de-Nazification” as an objective, I choose to believe them. They know what they are talking about. Probably more than anyone else ever could.

I disagree. Putin's "de-Nazification" is just propaganda. I doubt the regime would get involved at all if the Nazis were aligned with Russia and/or serving its interests. Russia got involved for a variety of reasons - but having a future EU or NATO member set up on their border and an insurrection staged (western orchestrated Euromaiden) to oust the democratically elected, Russian backed, government there, might be reason enough. If it's not - next you have the ongoing persecution of Russian speakers by those same far right militias. As with any leader, Putin came under pressure back home to support those Russians and their families in Ukraine. Ignoring that would have cost him dearly.

why then would they want a fully landscape with most of it, completely destroyed then?

It makes no sense to me at all, why Russia invaded Ukraine, but the "rebuilding the Soviet Union / Russian Empire" claims are utter nonsense, which have been promoted by certain western media for propaganda purposes. The "west" has sought to turn Putin into a bogeyman at ever turn - oh how things have changed.

The day before Russia invaded, I was at work assuring colleagues that nothing was going to happen...

Despite what you read in the mainstream media - Putin has fouled up on Ukraine and allowed Russia to be drawn into a costly and damaging conflict, exactly as intended, which could drag on and on for years. I doubt many believed he would go for it, but Russia's opponents made the attempt and they pulled it off. It's now a lose/lose situation for Russia as they're now stuck pursuing a war they can't easily withdraw from, while their NATO affiliated opponents are making a fortune in arms exports, while still pulling the strings in the same proxy war from a safe distance, all whilst Russians are shedding their own blood and burning through their own resources.

p.s. I would say this thread will go around in circles ad infinitum, so at this point I'm going to bow out. Thanks everyone.

The same reason Stalin did. The cities and people have no value to Putin, the value is in the LAND: some of the richest cropland in the region. (Well that, and he has always been enraged that the Soviet Union broke up and would really like to recreate it. OR at least, that is what he once claimed.)

But I agree with _blackhole_ that the discussion goes nowhere. Events will decide, and all of us that survive to will see. I will also drop out now.

You will find that Russia will win, not allow the conflict to "drag on." They were finally forced to come in to do a job, and they will do it. In the end, it will be a "military surrender," but on Russia's terms – which might not be what you think. Ukraine and NATO and the US will be forced to accept the terms which Putin stated at the end of February two years ago. The Ukranian people will probably soon overthrow Z's government on their own, giving him the "Mussolini treatment." But Russia will not "occupy" and seek to rule the country itself. (Some people in what is now "western Ukraine" have had a blood-hate of "Russians" for literally thousands of years.)

Remember that Russia has often referred to this as a civil war. The original capitol of "Rusa" was in Ukraine, not Moscow. Russia has always treated this conflict with kid gloves, seeking to avoid civilian casualties even when Ukraine did not reciprocate. If they had wanted to simply pour into the country and wipe it out, they easily could have – and, still could.

Now: If you're curious about the "back story," use the search feature at thepostil.com – an online imprint of St. Augustine Press. (It is not a "political" site.) From time to time they have published scholarly articles which will tell you more than you ever dreamed of about the ancient history of these lands – and the blood-soaked battles and feuds which have been fought upon them. "Literally 'since a grandson of Genghis Kahn.'" Before(!) the Tsars. The authors of these articles have impeccable academic, historical, and political credentials – and their works are anything but "quick reading!"

it is very probable. Our propaganda keeps showing that Ukraine is winning few little battles... However, if you watch the videos, you realize well that Russia has a massive power.
The question is rather if Trump does not help there, in this dramatic place. Russia will be at door of european countries.

Russia has always been the European country that Europe never wanted to acknowledge. It was Russia – not the atomic bombs – which provided victory against both Germany and(!) Japan. And nobody even came close to their number of soldiers killed and wounded.

As by far the largest country in the world, Russia is self-sufficient in all natural resources. She did not "de-industrialize," and is therefore able to sustain the production of the materials of war many times greater than all of NATO and the USA combined. She has energy supplies which Europe cannot do without, although they don't want to admit it.

But there are those in this world who covet this. They actually cooked up a plan to divide Russia into more than 40 impotent little countries, all of them too weak to survive on their own, and they even gave each one of them a new flag. But all of this simply reinforces that these countries have forgotten what "real War" actually is. They've given trillions of their currency units to military industrialists, and believed everything that they said about "battlefield management systems." More than anything else, this Ukraine business has been a sober reminder to all of them: "Don't Poke the Bear." And: "War Is Not A Drill."

D-Day was rather more USA ??

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To be fair, D-Day was a multinational combined effort. We hear about the US involvement, but we were far from alone. Russia was an important contributor, and should have built and enduring partnership with certain western nations (but obviously did not).

Russia was not "forced" into anything. This was is to no advantage to Russia, it advantages Putin and a few of the more powerful oligarchs.

As for Russia protecting civilians in Ukraine, I think not. They attacked schools, hospitals, apartment buildings, civilian rail stations, and other civilian targets more often than they attack military targets. They have raped and tortured civilians (notably asking "where are the Nazis" in communities that had no Nazis) and mass killing civilians and leaving the bodies to rot or dumping them into mass graves. That does not sound like "protecting" by my definition!

Russia has GREAT internal resources, but they have always had a problem leveraging those resources to gain economic power. They can leverage them to gain military aid, but only by spending those resources for less than what would be market value had they not started this war.

As for what they planned or thought, I cannot read minds so I cannot say. If I had to guess I would think that this was a horrible mistake and never intended to take this long or cost this much.

Russia was an ally of NAZI GERMANY and invaded Poland, a peaceful country and slaughtered countless people. Poland had the largest percentage of people killed of any country during WWII. China probably had more people total killed but had a larger population than Russia.

We need to remember that many Russian military and civilians were killed while Russia was an ALLY of the Nazi's and the Russians were busy killing British, French and other European soldiers and citizens. Stalin executed hundreds of thousands of Russians who opposed him and sent countless more to the 'gulag' where they conveniently died. Lots of sites discussing the topic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet...n_World_War_II

I expect the war would have lasted much longer without Russia but it might have been shorter had Russia not supported their ally Germany.

European and western countries have been provoking Russian since the first world war when they tried to overthrow the government of Russia. Would things have been substantially different had Lenin not died or Trotsky had led Russia rather than the psychotic murderer Stalin. I find it interesting that Russia is portrayed by the west as the massive military force since the NATO countries have basically been equal to Russia in terms of military budget since the end of WWII. Combine that with the countless billions the USA has contributed. The US military budget for a number of years has been larger than the combined budgets of NATO, Russia and China.


That being said, I'd much prefer Ukraine to emerge vitorious as Zelensky seems much more like a human being than Putin.

Just to add to my post above, many Russian soldiers died in the Battle of Stalingrad and other battles when they were forced to charge the German lines even though they were unarmed. They may have had a weapon but no ammunition unless they could find a rock or frozen cattle dung. If they would not charge, they would be shot in the back by their officer.

I also find it interesting that the party of Joe McCarthy that has spent decades talking about the evils of communism and doing what they could to rid the world of communism is now supporting a communist dictator. Particularly rich from Trump and his supporters who call others communists while they support a communist dictator.

Quite telling that he just totally ignored my question.

Things don't seem to have changed much in 80 years. The big Russian offensive in East Ukraine also involved "human waves" of unarmed or poorly armed men (often convicts) driven into battle by officers with guns.