the man has a point Strike.

Use Python, Lisp, Haskell, Smalltalk or O'Caml then :P

Alex

There are other programming lanuages which are as fast as C++ and don't have manual memory management. The alternative is not necessarily Java/Python, haven't we established this yet? Speed cannot be an argument for using C++.

I agree with Strike on your memory management point, I'm constantly thinking about memory management in C++. To the point of actually writing "smart pointer" classes and stuff, but then you're just writing your own inefficient GC.

I think the only good reasons for using C/C++ are that it's portable, faster than a portable scripting language, and there are a lot of libraries available for it. If I just want to do simple I/O, I've got no reason at all to write a program in C -- much better to write it in LISP or Haskell, say.

Alex

Are you comparing those languages with the power of C as a systems and embedded programming language ?
Na na na
Impossible buddy.
C is a Sea.
dont try to ...... it ?

Sure, why not? Just take a look at a LISP machine if you think C is the only language you can write operating systems in...

then you are telling Lisp is better than C in those domains. Then why the more than 75% embedded market uses C and all most all systems programming is done using C ?
Actually i dont even know a,b,c,d...s in Lisp.
Is lisp so powerfull than C?

Yes LISP is better. The only advantage C has is that it's more popular, which leads to better support for various platforms, etc. But that's nothing to do with the C language itself. We all know that popular technologies aren't necessarily the best technologies. VHS vs BetaMax, Windows vs Linux

Alex

Linux oneday will erase windows from software field (my feeling) because it is better than the windows. When lisp was created? When C was created?

Lisp was created sometime in the late 1950s, it peaked in popularity when it was used in AI in the 1980s, but then as the "AI revolution" collapsed, LISP sort of went down with it. But that has nothing much to do with its technical merits. Anyway, LISP is just a case in point, there's other languages that would be suitable for writing an OS (e.g. O'Caml).

Alex

People aren't questioning my choices, because I'm not talking about my choices. I'm asking about other people's choices and questioning them as to why they made such choices. So you directing the quote at me seems misplaced.

People aren't questioning my choices, because I'm not talking about my choices. I'm asking about other people's choices and questioning them as to why they made such choices. So you directing the quote at me seems misplaced. [/QUOTE]

no, its properly placed.

Come on, let's not stop talking about programming languages and start talking about Strike. On an argument thread like this, it's inevitable that people will irritate each other a little bit, but there's no need for the thread to descend into metadiscussion just because feelings are strong.

Alex

I guess, i'll repeat myself, again:

Programmers get used to something and stick to it. Unless they or someone else 'forces' them to look at something new they'll stick to it forever. C and C++ are popular because we are surrounded by it everywhere. The linux kernel is C, all popular apps for linux are written in C/C++. C/C++ is people's introduction.
That doesn't mean that C/C++ are the best languages, same as since Windows is the most popular OS, doesn't mean it's the best either. Now i personally love C and C++, they are amazingly powerfull languages. But because i'm a student i was sort of forced to look at alternatives, and yes, like always, there are better suited languages in some areas. It's natural.

Lisp is a very powerfull language, much older than C or C++. Why hasn't it caught on in popularity if it's so powerfull? Fuck knows, but mainly because most people had the misconception that it's only an AI language. Some have used it in their applications, some have not.

Either way, there will always be better languages available, but that doesn't mean people will use them.

i agree, but does Strike? show me a thread that he has yet to get personal on.

chewy: seriously, if you have issues with me or this thread, take them to the appropriate place and let this thread contain real content instead of you posting your issues about me. This is the last time I'm going to say that in this thread, because I just want it to be known publicly that I'm asking you politely to please keep things that are unrelated to the intended topic out of the thread. Anything else like this in the future should be handled through other channels.

Well, I have my theories about why Lisp hasn't caught on, one of which includes the whole "AI language" misconception. Another one is the fact that it's just not very fun to read for the beginner programmer (though I do think that if you coach it right, Lisp can be very easy to learn ... and I think Scheme is a great first language). But part of the reason of this thread was to probe the question of why no one bothers to investigate other languages when they start a new project. I can see that it does happen and several people have already admitted in this very thread that they tend not to not do such an investigation for their projects. But I'm wondering if it's pure laziness (every good programmer has to be lazy to some degree) or a lack of knowledge about the alternatives, or something else entirely. That's what I'm trying to find out from people (note to everyone: I'm not trying to evangelize anything in particular or bash anything in particular, I may use specific examples to prove points/counterpoints but they serve no purpose in this thread but to be evidence for points/counterpoints ... trust me, you can tell when I'm evangelizing or bashing )