Why no cargo ships with humanitarian aid in and hospitalised civilians out?
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wpeckham, are you seriously going to attempt to assert equivalency between the human rights violations of Hamas versus Israel? For starters, when did Israel behead people for ideology speech or promote or justify stoning women to death?
wpeckham, are you seriously going to attempt to assert equivalency between the human rights violations of Hamas versus Israel? For starters, when did Israel behead people for ideology speech or promote or justify stoning women to death?
#1 you SERIOUSLY need to study up on the history of the faith!
#2 killing people because they live on the land you want and they are not Jews is not as bad? After they are buried, bringing soldiers to chase everyone off the graveyard so you can pave it over for a parking lot for a new Jewish homestead is not as bad? Israel has done that a LOT! Why do you suppose they are so hated in much of the Arab world?
#3 Bombing hospitals and ambulances is a terrorist act, and Israel is doing that RIGHT NOW!
One murder of an innocent is not better than another murder of an innocent!
As for USA and war crimes, you have a point and I would like to address it.
Some wars have had broad public support, and some have been wildly unpopular, and most have been both. Every war had had mistakes and every one has had war crimes. Some of those were not war crimes when they were first committed, but after we saw what had been done and the effect on innocent people we determined to call that a crime and try NEVER TO DO THAT AGAIN! (Not always with perfect success, but the effort makes a difference and MATTERS!) We change our rules of engagement and military SOP as we change what is, and is not, acceptable behavior in war.
Hamas has done things that no civilized nation should find acceptable. Israel has also done things that no civilized nation should find acceptable. The fact that someone else has also been wrong does not make it right.
#2 killing people because they live on the land you want and they are not Jews is not as bad? After they are buried, bringing soldiers to chase everyone off the graveyard so you can pave it over for a parking lot for a new Jewish homestead is not as bad? Israel has done that a LOT! Why do you suppose they are so hated in much of the Arab world?
Citation please. Exactly who was killed with no provocation "because they live on the land you want" and when?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham
#3 Bombing hospitals and ambulances is a terrorist act, and Israel is doing that RIGHT NOW!
AFAIK the one hospital that was hit has credible evidence it was Hamas' ordnance that hit it whether accidental or purposeful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham
One murder of an innocent is not better than another murder of an innocent!
Degree does matter. As regrettable as any violent death is equating collateral damage with planning for and seeking civilians to rape, torture, kidnap, and murder is like saying an accidental death of a pedestrian when a car goes out of control as a result of an accident is the same as mowing down a crowd of people by design.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham
As for USA and war crimes, you have a point and I would like to address it.
Some wars have had broad public support, and some have been wildly unpopular, and most have been both. Every war had had mistakes and every one has had war crimes. Some of those were not war crimes when they were first committed, but after we saw what had been done and the effect on innocent people we determined to call that a crime and try NEVER TO DO THAT AGAIN! (Not always with perfect success, but the effort makes a difference and MATTERS!) We change our rules of engagement and military SOP as we change what is, and is not, acceptable behavior in war.
I agree that effort has existed and hopefully has improved (such as actually declaring war which requires a congressional vote) but the fact remains that once hostilities begin whatever the instigating events were, it gets down to soldiers seeing their buddies die horribly and fear, and atrocities will occur. War is primal despite any efforts to make it civil.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wpeckham
Hamas has done things that no civilized nation should find acceptable. Israel has also done things that no civilized nation should find acceptable. The fact that someone else has also been wrong does not make it right.
Again we agree here but again there is a matter of degree, and in my view Hamas has tipped that scale massively against them... not Palestinians, just Hamas. Thankfully wise and reasonable fear has apparently kept Iran from direct action, largely thanks to US support for Israel and horror at Hamas terrorism. There is considerable evidence that Hamas has had considerable clandestine push and support from Iran. This is modern warfare and I think a very serious wake up call to the dangers of not specifying and enforcing the separation of Church and State. .
You have to check the sources and watch for bias on the part of some journalists and reporters, but it is easy to find a LOT of examples in better history books on the subject, and in mass media. You only have to look. The problem has existed at LEAST since the 6-day war, and generally from the origin of Israel in the late 1940s. IT has been getting worse with time.
Every year, Amnesty International publish a report on the state of the world's human rights for the previous year.
The most recent report was published in March 2023, covering events that occurred during 2022, and as such makes no mention of current events.
What follows is a fraction of the section on "Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories".
Quote:
Israel’s continuing oppressive and discriminatory system of governing Palestinians in Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT) constituted a system of apartheid, and Israeli officials committed the crime of apartheid under international law.
...
On 7 August, an Israeli missile, apparently fired by a drone, hit Al-Falluja cemetery in Jabalia refugee camp, killing five children and injuring one, in an apparent direct attack on civilians or indiscriminate attack.
...
Israeli forces killed 151 Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and injured 9,875, according to OCHA-OPT, amid a surge of military incursions that involved excessive use of force, including unlawful killings and apparent extrajudicial executions.
...
On 11 May, Israeli soldiers killed Shirin Abu Akleh, a Palestinian-US Al Jazeera correspondent, and injured her colleague, while they were covering an Israeli army raid in Jenin Camp.
...
In the West Bank, 175 permanent checkpoints and other roadblocks, as well as scores of temporary irregular barriers and a draconian permit regime, supported by a repressive biometric surveillance system, continued to control and fragment Palestinian communities.
...
On 4 May, the Israeli Supreme Court upheld a decision to forcibly transfer over 1,000 residents of Masafer Yatta in the South Hebron Hills from their ancestral land, which Israel had designated as “firing zone 918”, a military training zone closed to Palestinian access.
...
Israeli forces continued to subject Palestinian detainees to torture and other ill-treatment. As in previous years, the internal investigation unit of the police, Mahash, failed to properly investigate complaints of torture. On 24 November, the Beersheba District Court extended, by four months, the solitary confinement of Ahmad Manasra, imprisoned as a 13-year-old in 2015 and held in solitary confinement since November 2021, an act that amounts to torture.
...
In March, Israeli planes resumed aerial spraying of herbicides on the buffer zone in the Gaza Strip, damaging Palestinian farmland.
...
In Israel, marriage and divorce remained under the exclusive jurisdiction of religious courts, leading to systematic discrimination against women in personal status matters.
...
Of the 40 femicides against Palestinian women in Israel during that period, 58% were not resolved by the police while all 29 femicides of Jewish-Israeli women in the same period were resolved.
...
If one were to make an honest consideration of which human rights violations have been committed... well, it seems to me it would be shorter to list those which have not...
"
Since 2001, Palestinian militants have launched tens of thousands[1][2][3][4] of rocket and mortar attacks on Israel from the Gaza Strip as part of the continuing Arab–Israeli conflict. The attacks, widely condemned for targeting civilians, have been described as terrorism by the United Nations, the European Union, and Israeli officials, and are defined as war crimes by human rights groups Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch."
Well I did specify "unprovoked" but admittedly that might be seen as fuzzy and a bit less than clear when opposing ideologies are at the base of conflict. Although I could be off the mark, as I understand it, radical Islam opposed the very establishment of Israel as a Jewish Nation after WWII and immediately began violent attacks to try to effectively reverse establishment and oust or kill all the settlers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia - History of Israel (1948-Present)
Immediately following the declaration of the new state, both superpower leaders, US President Harry S. Truman and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, recognized the new state.[8] The Arab League members Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq refused to accept the UN partition plan and proclaimed the right of self-determination for the Arabs across the whole of Palestine.
The Arab states marched their forces into what had, until the previous day, been the British Mandate for Palestine, starting the first Arab–Israeli War. The Arab states had heavy military equipment at their disposal and were initially on the offensive (the Jewish forces were not a state before 15 May and could not buy heavy arms). On 29 May 1948, the British initiated United Nations Security Council Resolution 50 declaring an arms embargo on the region. Czechoslovakia violated the resolution, supplying the Jewish state with critical military hardware to match the (mainly British) heavy equipment and planes already owned by the invading Arab states.
I imagine many of Islam blame the Western nations that arbitrarily setup the State of Israel in addition to blaming Jews for even wanting to reverse the violent invasion and takeover from over 1400 years prior and for them to even have a homeland. With civilizations that trace their history from thousands of years ago politics and ideology are even more complex and difficult to resolve since all of our ancestors at some point lived by violent conquest. Any civilization that holds on too dearly to "the old ways" holds on to violence as the primary means to resolve conflict.
It is for each to determine just who holds on most doggedly to old ways.
Why does not Egypt open up their border and allow people out into the refugee area they are reported to have prepared some time ago? It would appear to be easier to supply with food etc.
Last edited by grumpyskeptic; 04-05-2024 at 08:01 AM.
Why does not Egypt open up their border and allow people out into the refugee area they are reported to have prepared some time ago? It would appear to be easier to supply with food etc.
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