A fascinating debate! I find myself agreeing with each contribution in turn as I read it.

BUT ... coming to Linux from outside, at the recommendation of a respected friend, I found the initial learrning curve extremely steep. Too much so. I tried about five different "distros", none of which would do even the most basic things. Eventually, I learned a bit of the "geekspeak" that has to be typed into various "terminals" - or rather, I found references to it and wrote it down very carefully in my own Fine Manual. But I could NOT get a Linux machine to work on my network - until two weeks ago, when I found a fellow Newbie who had a friend who knew the answer, and explained it to him in plain English. His answer fixed my problem in ten minutes. But I'd been something like 18 months, on and off, trying - with never a sensible answer on any forum in that time. Maybe I was expecting too much.

I don't know why I need to type /.configure, make, make install, etc. Sometimes there are extra bits that need to be typed beyond that, but I don't know what those are or where to find them. I'm too old, with too little life left ahead of me, to spend my time learning all that stuff. So any software that needs that isn't for me. Now, I use Knoppix with Kpackager, which will find updates, new software, etc - and install it for me with a mouse-click. That's the way I like Linux to work, and now it does.

Armed with Kpackage, I started exploring the available software for Linux - and I conclude it's outstanding - far ahead of anything available for Microsoft. A bit more prone to crashing, maybe, and not as "polished" sometimes, but often brilliant. Here be geniuses. But I've only been able to use it for the past couple of weeks, after all those months of trying (occasionally, and frustratingly) and I'm still exploring.

So now, the (new) Windows machine gets used for the "day job" where it's all MS Excel, Publisher, and Word - because that machine never crashes, and I know I can do a job and complete it. But for the "interest" stuff, it's the older computer - the one that wasn't up to running Win XP - and Linux.

So I conclude: there are as many expectations, hopes, and attitudes to Linux as there are people using it. They are all right, or they are all wrong, depending on where you are coming from. If your app means I have to keep going back to the Internet cafe to download yet another library of stuff, I'm not going to use your app. Fortunately, there's probably another app to do the same thing that is more "user friendly". To those who take a pride in their work and design it to be user-friendly, I say "thank you" and I use their fine software. To those who don't give a fig, I say "Good luck to you, I hope you're happy." and I wipe their stuff off my hard drive.

And still I have "bugs" on my Knoppix install, and most of the replies I get on the fora fall into the category "smart-**** comment" - they add nothing to the sum of human knowledge, or to my knowledge, or to anyone's wellbeing. That, I fear, is life. Fortunately, there are some who genuinely seek to help. I hope that I will be in that category once I've got this beast tamed.

Okay, I admit that I am ignorant.

I admit that I am part of the third world.

I admit that us third world, second class citizens are not fit to wash your feet.....

You guys don't want us third world types to dirty your doorsteps, I understand that.

Fine.

The more I read this thread, the more I understand where George W. Bush is coming from.

The point is how to make America great again by bringing the rest of the world down to the point that they are easier to control.

AND, you can keep on saying that I don't uderstand what a programmer does, and I can keep on saying that I am a programmer; you aren't listening to me, to you I am just another third world bum.

Buddy that's fine. You don't like me and I don't like you.

This is *not* about some third world issue. This is simply about FOSS being "harder" to install than software for Windows (or Mac OS X).

I respect people from the third world, and feel sorry for guys having a hard time accessing the Internet, but at the same time I understand that the Linux community is built around the Internet and this makes us cut off you guys from the third world. I do not have a solution to that problem. And if I had one, I would post it into another thread, because this is about Linux and the "flaw" in it that you presented. We should not get OT.

Regards.

With respect, this IS a third world issue.

This is about using hardware without paying Mr. Gates his tithe and his fuedal rights.

Great if you happen to be from the first world, you guys can all afford it.

I see where you're coming from, though, why should the third world not pay first world prices for software?

Why should the first world not expect to profit at the their expense. After all if they want to join the digital revolution they should pay the dues, no?

OK, so let's move to the third world issue. First I need to clarify that with all respect, I am not from your world, and what I say is just what I think. So I want to be corrected on anything I am saying wrong.

First we all know that Linux was developed around the Internet, and that the community is built around the Internet. Going to buy a CD will get you Linux, but without a pretty fast connection you will not get much out of it. You cannot just walk into any shop selling software and buy programs for Linux, they mostly sell stuff for Windows.

So, the dilemma is that Linux needs and *wants* to grow in the third world. I myself believe that that's where our future is, expanding in the developing world. The problem is that without an Internet connection you will miss out a lot as it looks today.

I am not sure how much a connection costs over there, but I guess that if you even can get one, your salary often won't be enough? I guess that we from the first world could try to "invest" (or whatever you may call it) and try to get you more connections at a very very low price, so more people can afford it.

And, about the dependency problem: this is just a newly born idea, haven't thought it through yet, but I'll give it a try.
If a system could have some sort of file that contains the computers setup and configuration (not precisely but at least some libraries and applications), and let some package manager read that file and download all dependencies for that setup, you would actually be able to go to the Internet café and download all dependencies for *your* computer and then just go home with it. I am not sure how that would work if you would install something without a package manager (with autotools or something else), but it might work if you install everything with your package manager and the manager makes sure that the "config file" is correct.

Well, I hope I did not embaress myself now, missing something making everything I said sadly ridiculous or something.

Regards.

I can no longer figure out what you want Cov. It is possible for you to go out and purchase something like RHEL from a store (which is certainly expensive and something that I can't afford). They will ship you updates on CD (last one I got at work was RHEL 3 Update 4 which means they seam to push out updates about ever 3 months), but only if you pay for licensing. This is an option of other distributions as well. Heck, Ubuntu will even send you install CD's free of charge.

The problem, if I'm understand it correctly, is that you are having trouble getting updates and new software. Much of the OSS out there is developed by individuals or small groups who make absolutely no money off it. They certainly can't afford to have CD distributions. They also tend to update there software often as bug reports roll in. I can't figure any way other then the internet of which to do distribution.

I certainly understand it must suck having to download packages over a slow connection but I certainly don't think you can blame xyz programmer for not being able to afford any other method of distributing his software.

I guess the point is, how do you purpose this issue is fixed? What could possibly be done that would satisfy somebody in your situation? How would you like to receive your software?

What are you on about?

Are you trying to tell us that since the OSS community
develops software for free they should also take care of
the expense of the logistics of the recipient? You're not
making sense, then.

If you can afford any sort of hardware (I assume it doesn't
grow on trees in third-world countries, either) you're one
of the wealthier fellows anyway, and should consider yourself
blessed.


Cheers,
Tink

alright i think everyone has a valid point. and if u look at it clearly, if linux don't suit you then stick with windows, or if you think linux suit your needs, then go for linux.

Linux is for you if:
*You want an OS that feels like you have control over(customizing you own install, installing the different packages either by source or rpm or scripts).
*You are a heavy gamer(i know some good games like doom3,sims,civ:ctp is available for linux but alot of the mainstream games is not)
*You want a secure system free of spyware and adware
You want a system that will not die after a virus/trojan/worm hits it(due to the file structure and permission)
*You don't want to defragment you drive once everyweek/month(depending when you defrag)
*You are happy working with command lines and a fairly user friendly gui(this depends on what friendly mean for each different individual)
*You don't have a system with relatively new hardware(4years old hardware if fine for most linux distro, you can go lower to 486, if you want only command line or setting up a fileserver)
*You want an OS for free(free for download legally)
*You want a computer that does not require reboot for simple installation of packages(excluding kernel related stuff)

Windows is for you if:
*You just want a computer that can be setup with a few procedure(next, next finish...etc)
*You want a computer that have an easy to learn and friendly GUI
*You are a heavy gamer and you are also into a lot of gaming(which means you also need state of the art hardware)
*The once in a while BSOD or crashing does not bother you
*You don't mind some spyware/adware/torjan/virus (yes, i know some of you might get it alot of times or not, but the fact is you will get some of those annoyance once in awhile)
*You are willing to pay ~$200AUD to ~$300AUD for windows XP Home and XP Pro(price might be different from you country price
*You are willing to pay ~$300AUD to ~$850AUD for microsoft office package, alternatively you can download staroffice for free!
*You want a system that will work with most hardware straight out of th ebox or with a simple driver/software installation(eg: ati graphic card are a bitch to get working properly and effciently )on linux)
*You don't mind the reboot time for software installation upgrades.
*you don't mind downloading services pack or critical updates regurlarly

Haven't try mac Os or BEOS extensively to comment on them. Also i am not trying to start an argument, i am just trying to point out features that might help you decide on which OS you should be on. wether you listen to my suggestion is up to you XD

Anyway hope those suggestion help you all out, if i am wrong at anyplace please do correct me....don't mind my spelling ...english is not my first language

Have a read at this people: http://lobby4linux.com/WordPress/?p=21

cov, I have no idea want your talking about.

At no point did I mention you or anything about the third world. I was speaking with respect to some of the comments made.
That one by you is particularly telling. You seem to have some personal issues.

Zack

Thats a very good article. Still some people cant believe that Linux is not WINDOW$. When i saw the title of this thread i thought Linus is here to talk about a big kernel bug. I personally think linux is much easier to use if you know what you are doing.